Decision fatigue and productivity, discipline as a path to freedom, and self-reflection.
Summary
Craig Constantine and Dave Closson begin with finding one’s “why” and how it drives one’s actions and decisions. They stress that articulating a clear why-statement is key to staying focused and avoiding distractions.
Better and better and more efficient and more effective, that’s great. It’s about continuous improvement. But I’ve discovered that it’s not just about getting better at what you do, it’s also about getting smarter about how you do it. That’s where the real freedom comes from. It’s like having a well-oiled machine that runs smoothly, and you don’t have to constantly tinker with it.
~ Dave Closson around 17:16
The conversation shifts to the role of processes and structure, with both speakers emphasizing that they can be liberating rather than constricting, as they help eliminate decision fatigue. Dave introduces the idea of having meaningful conversations with oneself as a way to navigate complex thoughts and emotions effectively.
For more about Dave Closson, see https://daveclosson.com
Episode audio
Takeaways
The Significance of a Clear “Why”: Dave and Craig emphasize the importance of having a well-defined purpose or “why” in various aspects of life. (See Simon Sinek’s Start with Why)
Processes and Structures for Efficiency: Contrary to the notion that processes and structures stifle creativity, their role in providing freedom and reducing decision fatigue is highlighted.
Structured Self-Conversations: Dave introduces the concept of structured self-conversations, a valuable tool for introspection and problem-solving.
Continuous Improvement: The conversation touches on the idea that striving for continuous improvement is not just about getting better at what you do but also getting smarter about how you do it.
Balancing Structure and Flexibility: While processes and structures are valuable, it’s essential to strike a balance between structure and flexibility.
Importance of Restorative Practices: The conversation briefly touches on the significance of restorative practices.
(Written with help from Chat-GPT.)
Transcript
00:00.00
Craig
Hello I’m Craig Constantine. Welcome to Podtalk, short conversations with podcast creators that are not just about podcasting because I like to take the scenic route. My guest today is Dave Closson. Welcome Dave how are you this morning? good.
00:13.48
Dave
Doing wonderful good morning Craig great to see you again.
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00:21.34
Craig
We had. We had a pre-call sorry everybody we had a pre-call a couple weeks ago that we really should have recorded but I try to avoid doing that to people when they tell them we’re just going to talk. We’re not recording. Um, so that was awesome. Thanks for that. Um, and our little conversation before we started here was a little challenging because we have like 5 different places we could start and head off and so the one that we kind of agreed we wanted to start talking about was let’s start talking about process for those of you who aren’t processed nerds wait don’t panic. We’re going to go somewhere in particular with this. Um, so. Dave you’ve got um in some ways you remind me of me because you’re you’re it’s a good well, that’s a compliment you’re process oriented and you’ve got multiple multiple spinning plates or balls in the air if you like juggling metaphors instead and I i.
01:02.46
Dave
Is that good or bad I will not to be determined.
01:15.60
Craig
When we were talking you were mentioning that you’re thinking about or in the middle of playing with switching from a Saana to notion I think you said um so people are like yeah but what does this guy do but before we go there.
01:21.67
Dave
Correct.
01:28.60
Craig
Just tell me a little bit about what you’re looking at within notion that kind of excites you that’s making you rejigger your processes and that I think will lead us into what you do with this stuff.
01:36.49
Dave
Yes, So the emphasis The reason the driving factor is behind switching from Asana for my project management to notion is that my business is growing I’m taking on more and more spinning Plates. And thank you Thank you and to help balance all of those spinning plates I’m bringing up a team of subcontractors and wanted to be able to collaborate better more effectively.
01:56.66
Craig
Congratulations.
02:12.83
Dave
As we take on these bigger and bigger projects together and we needed a so ah space to do that and I love Usana I had Portfolios workflows rules automat like it was awesome.
02:27.92
Dave
But it was expensive to pay for a whole roster of subcontractors that might only be working with me on like 1 project for two months so looking yeah I could go the Microsoft teams route I could just use Google docs and Google folders and Google sheets. But then you’ve got to track all those links.
02:32.87
Craig
Right.
02:41.64
Craig
Um, yeah, Yikes and a whole bunch of what do they call those like a tables thing and if this then that is roll it yourself.
02:45.79
Dave
Right? like.
02:51.53
Dave
Right? right? Ah so I found notion and it is ah a combination of pretty much all of those different tools with a little bit of Ai sprinkled into it just makes it fun to play around with and I’m only. A week and a half into the transition and I’m loving it. It’s that one-st stop shop I was actually telling my marketing team yesterday before I even open my email every morning I open up notion. That’s what guides that’s what drives my day. so so I’ll hit pause there and see what you think.
03:12.44
Craig
Um.
03:21.90
Craig
Um.
03:24.40
Dave
Because I could just ramble and ran all day about it.
03:24.30
Craig
Um, this podcast is not actually brought to you by notion but it should be um I haven’t looked at notion per se so if people are like well that sounds cool. Yeah, go look at that we have the internet for that. Um, so if it isn’t clear. Dave is.
03:30.67
Dave
Ah.
03:40.86
Craig
Ah, like a process like a structured guy and of course you and I hit it off right away and what my actual questioner that’s like a big setup for Okay, why are you like for me if I decide Oh this thing’s interesting. You know the shiny syndrome.
03:42.43
Dave
A.
03:57.68
Dave
In.
03:59.98
Craig
I have to control myself and say what’s my definition of done and I literally in my head is like Dod do od definition of done if I don’t know what done is I do not start the thing. So I know exactly what done looks like for this show. It’s at the end of this other checklist on this second sheet over here that involves like say. Thank you to Dave it’s like the last checkbox.
04:10.50
Dave
On here.
04:19.40
Craig
Um, and I won’t like start recording unless I know this is what’s done for the show because otherwise I end up with way more things than I can possibly do So it’s a lot of work. It sounds like to switch from as sauna to notion and it’s a lot of work to build a team and like why are you.
04:19.17
Dave
Um.
04:36.45
Craig
Why why are you podcasting? Why are you doing all this yeah in 2 minutes or less no almost fine. You can talk as long as you want.
04:40.43
Dave
Oh my. So this was supposed to be a quick conversation right? All right? So in 2 minutes or less the big picture y is lifestyle design. Um. Rather than get a day job and build my quote life around the job so evenings and weekends I set out to build a job that will be the vehicle. The means to let me live the kind of life that I want to live and so part of that then when you start your own business. Means systems. It means a lot of work but the only way to really maintain my sanity and effectiveness to be able to then live that kind of life that I want to live takes systems. It takes processes so that’s kind of the the very big picture. Why. And in the scope of my business podcasting is a very strategic method tool aspect of my business in that I work in the substance misuse prevention field. So I train people. At state at the state level at the local community level regional level to then go out and do prevention work to make their communities safer healthier and drug free. So kind of ah a capacity builder. What I found was though somebody in Pennsylvania.
06:13.40
Dave
Might be curious. Well, what’s what’s working over there in Ohio or Indiana I want to learn from them other than professional conferences. There wasn’t really a means for folks to hear enter podcasting. It’s a great way for folks to hear what’s going on around the country.
06:17.54
Craig
Um.
06:25.40
Craig
Um, after podcasting.
06:33.50
Dave
What’s working what’s not working to help educate to help inspire and hopefully too to foster some new connections at the end of my my conversations I ask folks? how can they get connected. How can folks reach out to build that that bigger culture of community. Where we can ask each other for help and support I feel like I’m kind of rambling a little bit so hip Paul is there too. But that’s ah, that’s the why behind everything.
06:59.60
Craig
Um, no, you’re man, you’re not rambling. You’re not rambling I Um I think that and I’m just going to put some more dots on the painting here we were talking before I hit record and.
07:11.72
Dave
Um, yeah.
07:14.51
Craig
I was sort of outing myself as like I really should do more with promoting my shows and people if I’m a guest on someone else’s show and then they invariably ask like what are you going to do to help promote the show like ah it doesn’t matter nobody cares like I mean I have dedicated people who like you know yes I mean them I do anything but I don’t have a thousand listeners. Um, so I often think oh I should be doing more with Pr and I don’t really like social media but there’s nothing wrong with like I can be 1 of the people who’s making the good content like I no problem with like putting good into the world through the platforms that everybody’s using that’s fine. Um I don’t expect anything from it. Um, and and I think you said something. Um. That made me go oh thank you? Which was you’ve basically said oh Craig your y is different like I’m I’m just making really I’m just making these shows because I’m so expert of deleted passionate about conversation and I find that every time I get into one of these conversations I come away with.
08:02.74
Dave
Um.
08:07.51
Dave
I.
08:12.41
Craig
Some new idea or some new thing and I’m like oh yeah I did do that correctly. So I just think ah sounds like you’re pretty I Want to say mature but that’s quite the right word, you’re pretty on it about being mindful about the why and I’m guessing.
08:27.54
Dave
M.
08:31.78
Craig
So if your why for making a podcast is to share that hey you know you can you can Dave can be heard you know across the world if your were why is to share that that sounds like that takes some of the pressure off or a lot of the pressure off about like I guess I don’t what to worry about monetizing this thing I don’t want to find sponsors or they’re going to tell me what to do.
08:38.53
Dave
Um.
08:51.74
Craig
Don’t have to be like I must find really popular guests. Otherwise my show doesn’t grow. So if um, you’re not He’s nodding alone audio only show if if you that’s a clarity for you. Um, it sounds like you had that clarity before you pressed record the first time and I’m just wondering like ah am I reading. That clarity correctly and your journey to reach that clarity and then maybe since you’re really good at answering questions. Maybe what can people begin to think about if they’re kind of at the fork in their boats. Oh should I be working on better guest should I be working on better podcast creation. Myself should I be working on a team like. How to? how does somebody find their why or focus or clarify their why that’s easy. Easy question.
09:31.26
Dave
Yes, so oh absolutely easy question like a softball question. Although I’m not a softball player. Um, why like finding your why I would say there’s different layers to it if you’ve read the book. By Simon Sinek start with why? love it and actually my computer wallpaper is my why statement having gone through a workshop with his team to really clarify my big picture why which is to live and share a life of continued growth.
10:00.20
Craig
Um.
10:05.66
Dave
So that we may overcome adversity and live a fulfilling life that is ah the capture all behind everything that I do living and sharing so we can overcome adversity and when I tackle a project or a new event. A new partnership. Whatever it may be. Being able to articulate your why behind it to clearly articulate. It helps do a lot of things 1 it helps ward off the shiny object or squirrel syndrome right? it it really does. It’s that definition of done and it can help you stay on track.
10:38.11
Craig
Um, right.
10:45.18
Dave
But also it can be your your guiding Compass you know is that if this is the why does it really serve my bigger. Why my bigger vision does it help me get to where I want to go or help me be who I want to be and so when it comes to specifically podcasting.
10:57.92
Craig
Um.
11:03.36
Dave
What I see as I’ve coached folks to to start their own podcast is really being able to articulate that because as I’ve experienced and I know you kind of articulated too that when you get into it. You’re go on a guest. You’re a guest on a show and you’re thinking Oh I could do that too. Well hey I should get a new microphone or oh I think I’m going to.
11:20.89
Craig
And.
11:23.27
Dave
But some new acoustic treatment on my ceiling because somebody else had it and I saw a picture of it on Instagram but does it serve my why or is it sort of that squirrel moment or shiny object. So really articulating your why then once you know why you’re doing things.
11:27.21
Craig
There.
11:40.64
Dave
You can then start to unpack What what is that definition of done. You know your why then you know what you actually want to accomplish that definition of done then that’s going to bring you to the how So how can you best accomplish that is it building a team is it New tech.
11:46.30
Craig
Um.
11:59.68
Dave
Is it new systems is it switching to notion but it starts with the why and then that what or the definition of done then you can figure out the actual how to get there if you skip those other steps and you go right? to the how you’re just going to be trying new toys gidgets wizmo Gizmo’s and all that which my call its.
12:16.81
Craig
Yeah, ah, super insightful I see the people listening see why just lob that mess Adam um, yeah, we had. We had some great conversations before as record I um recently ah, kind of you know? um.
12:19.53
Dave
I Just throw a bunch of stuff at you.
12:34.62
Craig
Yeah, if you’re a Harry Potter fan I’m not a Harry Potter fan but there was this wonderful thing. there’s ah, yeah there’s ah a thing a thing called a pensive when dumbleddore used to literally with his wand pull the ideas out of his head and drop them into this large stone basin called a pensive.
12:36.13
Dave
My wife is so I am by default.
12:48.76
Dave
Um, yes.
12:52.31
Craig
And then he would like swirl these ideas around and I I’m like oh that’s a beautiful image that she wrote you know for the book. So I often imagine that I have a pensive and I pull these ideas out and I stick them often in a document you stick them in a document but it’s way more cool to have the Harry Potter movie image and then. I love your way of saying like like as I pull these things out and like is this really about like this thing I’m holding a thing up is this about why or is this about what or is this about how or is this I need a nap like I think I don’t spend enough time.
13:25.27
Dave
Yep.
13:28.19
Craig
Because I say that because when I do spend time. It works out great I don’t spend enough time characterizing my thoughts and like letting things like settle what the snow globe settle a little bit and then start to decide I’ve been thinking about a piece I’m pretty sure it was written by cal newport he was talking about where is you are seen. Like in the the arch archtypical archetype of one is the 1900 s writing literary scene in Paris if you were a writer. Yeah, you’d sit in the cafe and drink some wine and 2 authors behind you would be talking about story and blah blah.
14:00.32
Dave
M.
14:02.37
Craig
And you just couldn’t help but find yourself energized as a writer because you were in among all these writers. So I’ve been thinking about scene for podcasters. So I’m notorious for rambling here’s an actual question where do you go if anywhere. How do you maintain your energy levels around podcasting. Is it.
14:08.39
Dave
Um.
14:21.60
Craig
Purpose-built space. Is it. You’ve got a mastermind group is it communities you hang out in is it. You’re just infinitely infinitely energized.
14:29.14
Dave
Um, my energy comes from quiet comes from just sitting with my own thoughts and reflecting on them and spending some time with them digging in kind of. Being able to articulate the why the what? and the how behind them and then I get sort of booster shots of energy when I get to interact with great folks and have amazing conversations I love conversation and that that helps me connect. That also helps reinforce my why the purpose behind what I do and it helps sort of fuel. My internal battery seeing the positive impacts I have on individuals’ lives and then the one. The impacts they have on the lives that they go out and interact with as well too like that all just brings me energy.
15:34.77
Craig
Is this problem with profound things. There’s nothing you can say after something profound what? Ah, what else is top of mind for you at the moment where where do you want to go next? What are you thinking.
15:43.57
Dave
Yeah, so batteries. Let’s talk about batteries in that. Yeah I brought up my my inner battery and spinning plates in the the why behind why I do what I do and to bring it back to Processes. We We can sometimes look at processes as cool Automations Cool Systems. We can look at them as Well. It’ll make me be more effective. It’ll make me and give me more free time back in my calendar. All those things are great right? But what if you shifted.
16:08.10
Craig
And.
16:22.48
Dave
Your paradigm your perspective and look at systems as energy Savers Brain Space Savers you’ve got that that I call it a bird bath but the dumbledore pool where you’re putting all these ideas in.
16:37.59
Craig
The pensive yeah burnt bath. Yeah, pensive’s way cooler sorry Dave ah.
16:41.50
Dave
That’s what it looked like to me. Yeah I know I know I know I’m not a cool dude I’m just Dave but you have all these ideas these thoughts these spinning plates in your mind and if you can hone in on systems. It takes all those random scattered ideas and puts them into a neatly organized process where you only have to press go and it takes that decision fatigue that whole stressor. So a lot of my processes. Yeah, it’s about being.
17:03.38
Craig
Um, yeah.
17:16.20
Dave
Better and better and more efficient more effective but I’ll tell you what has an even bigger return on investment for my mental health. It really does. It’s the only way I’m able to survive doing all the different things that I I want to do and that I do. I.
17:32.69
Craig
Mental Health Decision Fatigue is a if that’s real I’m hoping everybody listening goes? yep but because if you don’t know about decision fatigue I don’t know what? well I want to be you um, and I’ve learned through trial by multiple fires about.
17:38.20
Dave
Who it.
17:47.70
Craig
Not like I went through the fire but we have many many fires I’m like oh that’s a realm trial by multiple fires of learning to like okay don’t overestimate what you can do in a day Craig it’s way less than you think? um I try to be mindful of like well.
17:49.52
Dave
Yeah.
18:04.18
Craig
You know, does this need to get done today and like I know that I want to do it? Um, but does it really need to be done today like and sometimes I can identify clear things like you know if I do this today then all this coming week I get to you know like I fixed my table in a patio for example, um.
18:05.71
Dave
M.
18:21.26
Craig
So Okay, I’m going to do that today instead of doing these other things and I really find when I imagine when I’m standing at the vista that is the definition of done am I doing it or do um am I thinking about doing it just because it was cool to do or am I should I I should only choose to do things where when I get to the Vista I can look ahead and say now this is cool. Now because I went to the trouble of figuring out how to use my image editor I can make cool episode images. You know that kind of thing. Um, so I I think my my guess I try not to put thoughts into other people. Um like everybody thinks I hate to do that to people. But I think too many people are. Put off by discussion of process and structure because they think it’s going to be constricting and I really agree with your perspective when done right? process and structure is actually freeing because it gives you energy. Um, you know I look at things and I go.
19:02.40
Dave
No.
19:15.66
Craig
This doesn’t seem to fit my process. That’s a hint for me I probably should say no to this thing because the process works nicely. But who said the power of no, there’s like ah there’s a whole thing around the power of no.
19:20.38
Dave
Um, yep, yep.
19:27.71
Craig
Because if you say yes, you’ve said no to an unknown number of things in the future. But if you say no to this One thing you’ve left an infinite number of yeses open to paraphrase whoever said that.
19:34.80
Dave
Absolutely And oh I don’t know. But yeah I’ve heard that too opportunity cost. Yep yeah, and yeah I’m reminded of actually can’t see it on camera but behind my computer is a little bored that says discipline Equals freedom.
19:40.61
Craig
Um, yeah.
19:53.23
Dave
And that’s from the author Jock O wilnick
19:54.55
Craig
Dude I get a I get a posted note on my computer that says there are no miracles. There is only discipline. Let’s the only posted note stuck on the frame of my computer I abbreviate that N M D No Miracles discipline. Ah.
19:58.68
Dave
You. Oh right? and we hear discipline and oftentimes folks tense up and like oh crap that means yeah I can’t do this I can’t do that and like no, it’s free.
20:17.50
Craig
Um, discipline also means knowing when to get away from my computer and to go watch a movie or when to go for a walk that’s having enough discipline for to for Craig to say to himself. Okay, you need to stop that now I need to go do something else I’m with you all the way.
20:20.79
Dave
Um, Yes, oh oh and you just brought up another thought there too I think an untapped opportunity an area for growth for people is. This might sound pretty meta for for you listeners out there but it’s the ability to have a conversation with yourself.
20:50.34
Craig
I was just talking about that but get out of my head we I had another guest. Um, we we just came up on another podcast and what I’m stumbling for is I think it was for a different show so people like wait. What? um but I had a guest was talking about walking around having conversations with themselves and.
20:57.72
Dave
Um, is.
21:06.80
Craig
I can do that in a bad way I can get lost in the whole like arguing or like oh that person did this with that. But you’re right there is there. There is a way to kind of pull 1 ne’s thoughts out of the pensive or bird bath choose your metaphor and look at them and talk about them to yourself.
21:08.83
Dave
In in.
21:23.76
Dave
Yep yep, and for for listeners if if this is something that intrigues you I would encourage you start with the process and the first so first process I did was a seven day um oh what did I call it. Ah, mental diet to where when I had negative thoughts. They’re going to happen right? but I wouldn’t dwell on them I would dismiss them right? away. Okay, good. Not going to let it derail me but then sort of the next evolution.
21:44.59
Craig
Um.
21:58.64
Dave
Of being able to have conversations with myself I now have an increased awareness of my internal head game myself talk then when I recognize okay I’m having I need to have a better conversation with myself I can hit pause and then I can follow process and it starts with. Just the data just okay, what do I know about this situation. The facts observable facts things. You can’t argue with just yeah, just the facts and then okay, well let’s go to the the emotive side then based upon those facts what am I feeling.
22:21.57
Craig
Right? What’s real here. Yeah.
22:36.84
Dave
And explore that a little bit and you can use the 5 y’s to really dig to the root of that because like oh I’m just pissed or oh I’m angry or I’m embarrassed ask yourself why 5 times? Yep, right? you.
22:47.81
Craig
Um, I’m chuckling often I get down to like I need a nap like that’s really like I’m exhausted and I need a nap get up from my computer. Yeah.
22:55.32
Dave
Right? right? And then once you work through the emotions come up with some opportunities Now What are some ideas that come to mind as it relates to the data and my my emotions around that data. Awesome! Great now you just came up with a whole bunch of different ideas. Maybe it is. I Need a nap. Maybe it’s I need a screen break. Whatever that this those opportunities might be then you can use some critical thinking to decide which of those ideas is going to be the best outcome which one do I want to decide on So then you just decide and ask so it starts with get the data. Think about what what is your emotional reaction your gut response to that Data. What ideas come to mind of those ideas which one is most likely most feasible most beneficial and then pick it and go there’s your process.
23:49.22
Craig
Um, myself well said Dave oh.
23:50.85
Dave
Have a conversation with yourself. Fun fact that comes out of personality theory and brain science that is the natural process every single yes listeners every single human being takes when they process information and so when you’re able to clearly articulate the steps.
24:08.19
Craig
Um.
24:13.20
Dave
Of that thinking Process. You can then slow it down to make better informed decisions example being you’re driving down the road and the light in front of you turns Yellow. You’re taken in the data you notice the light. You look at the intersection you notice all the cars around you you have that emotional reaction to oh crap right? Whatever that right? So Then you come up with your options. Well I could slam on the Blake Brakes I could speed up you figure out what options are available.
24:35.22
Craig
Yeah I should decide I should go or not right.
24:48.32
Dave
Use that kind of critical thinking to then? Well if I slam on the brakes I could get rear-ended or if I speed up there might be a cop sitting right? over there I’ll get pulled over or I could get in an accident. You’re you’re using that critical thinking to funnel down and sort through those options and then based upon that critical thinking you decide to.
25:03.42
Craig
Um, now.
25:07.47
Dave
Gun it slow down I don’t know but it’s that same thought process same thing getting dressed in the morning. It’s that same process.
25:16.22
Craig
Um, do the do the I was the einstein thing to have the same clothes all lined up. Ah yeah, yeah, the challenge is that 6 in the morning I don’t have decision fatigue yet and I it’s ah how how? um, there’s like a rate you know like if i.
25:18.00
Dave
Um, right right? Decision Fatigue What? I.
25:32.27
Craig
Make the morning superpaced then I’m burnt you know I’m out of energy too early in the day. Oh we probably could talk for another hour about restorative practices and all these things. Um, we haven’t talked really about podcasting networks and now we we actually we we kind of used podcasting as our example for our conversation.
25:37.24
Dave
Um, you know I say and we talked about podcasting.
25:49.90
Dave
Um, yeah, right right.
25:50.94
Craig
Ah, round process but cool well as much as I hate to say it I’ll try to keep these things under control. Otherwise I’m here for hours. Yeah, does it have a timer on your is it of a timer on your side. Can you see the time that’s elapsed. Oh.
25:56.76
Dave
Yeah, Twenty Twenty five minutes is a goal correct that all comes back to your why doesn’t it yes, 26 oh 7 yep
26:08.60
Craig
26 so 7 yeah, there’s a couple seconds get cut off the front other than that. Um, yeah, ah, for people listening who are conversation nerds I sometimes talk about this thing called cicades not ciricada is the insect There’s I thing called the circade which is from your eyes the way your eyes hop on a page when you’re reading they call those circades. And I got this developing theory somebody just tell me where it is. It’s already a thing I’m sure that there’s circades to conversation and I think a circadian a conversations about 25 minutes to a half hour long at which point you’re going to be talking about something different. So I try to break the show when we’ve covered 1 big ccade. That’s what’s going on anyway.
26:38.61
Dave
Are.
26:47.37
Craig
Every once in a while Craig like tips open my head and let people peek in and they go oh my goodness I don’t want to look in there all right? So Dave it was a pleasure um had a great precall had a wonderful chat before we hit record. We have lots of other things we need to talk about more shows more things to record I’m sure we will.
26:56.86
Dave
So.
27:03.77
Craig
Meet again. So thanks so much for taking the time distinct pleasure.
27:07.27
Dave
Um, always enjoy having a great conversation with an awesome person. Thank you very much.