Summary
There’s something special about the concept of being “open and curious.” It’s a state of being that allows us to dive into the depths of our humanity, to explore the unknown and uncover new truths. This is something that Craig Constantine knows well. Tom Huntington, Craig’s guest on the podcast, is immediately taken by the concept of open and curious. He has been reflecting on the idea of what is healthy human nature and what are the truths that exist within it. Open and curious fits right in.
Episode Audio
Open and Curious
There’s something special about the concept of being “open and curious.” It’s a state of being that allows us to dive into the depths of our humanity, to explore the unknown and uncover new truths. This is something that Craig Constantine knows well. Tom Huntington, Craig’s guest on the podcast, is immediately taken by the concept of open and curious. He has been reflecting on the idea of what is healthy human nature and what are the truths that exist within it. Open and curious fits right in.
“It started early last year,” Craig says. “I began writing and I realized I was writing more and more about my exploration of conversation. I wanted to pull this joyful journey out of everything else that I was doing, so I went and started writing on a new platform completely separate from my websites and projects. That’s how the Open + Curious project got started.”
“Open and curious is not just a guide or a rule,” Craig says. “It’s what it means to be a functional human.”
This idea of open and curious is something that has been reinforced by Tom’s first brain science mentor, Dan Siegel, who wrote a book called The Developing Mind. In it, he discusses the idea of relationships and how they shape who we are.
“In the middle of his book, Dan Siegel was studying brain science and attachment science, and he came up with this term ‘maximal complexity’,” Tom says. “It’s the idea that we need to be open enough in the moment to learning, but not so open that we become chaotic. Finding the balance between the two is key.”
These ideas are powerful, and they’re something that Craig and Tom have both taken to heart. Through their conversations, they have both come to understand the importance of being open and curious, and to recognize the power it has to shape our lives.
Transcript
00:00.00
Craig
Hello I’m Craig Constantine welcome to pod talk short conversations with indie podcasters that are not just about podcasting because I like to take the scenic route. My guest today is Tom Huntington welcome Tom how are you this morning. You’re still, you’re on the left coast. …how are you this morning.
00:19.99
Tom
I’m doing great Craig and I’m so excited you accepted my invitation to interview. No to have a team conversation with you about your project open and curious I’m so excited.
Read more…
00:27.68
Craig
He would. We should unpack this so I posted on the workbench in the podcaster community that I’m working on I was at the time I was wordsmithing the description for a new podcast. Hello I’m Craig I have a podcasting problem I’m making yet another show. Was making another show and I said to everybody hey I got this new idea. It’s called open and curious and what do you guys? think of this description for the podcast and I was trying to wordsmith it and then from that I was going to pull like what’s the short description. What’s the intro that I say and so it’s like the first piece of copy that I was crafting. So there are a lot of people who went wait what like new project. What is this thing so open and curious started I think it’s seven or eight months ago it was early last year um where I began writing and what happened was I realized I was writing more and more about my. I don’t want to say journey I want to say like my ridiculous crazy playful delightful exploration of conversation I started writing more about this and then I thought this stuff is buried inside everything else that I’m doing so I wanted to pull out this joyful journey.
01:46.91
Craig
So like all right I got to pull this out so I went and I started writing on a new platform completely separate from my websites and projects make ah another thing make a whole new thing Craig and that’s how this this got started so it started it was originally called thoughts on conversation I have a great friend who runs a large community. Centered around a movement practice called parkor and he runs this like Multithousand people event on a rooftop of a school in Manhattan and he’s like come and give a presentations I did that and then I went to another event and the more I talk about this the more I start saying what do you think about this What do you think about that people get excited about this project. So. I’m super excited about it and when you read my workbench topic you wrote back I think you actually messaged me privately and said hey what if we get together and talk about the show. So it’s kind of like the flip side. Yeah, no, you can interrupt.
02:35.39
Tom
Because I know I’m interrupting you because I was immediately excited when I saw something you had poped before this about open and curious and the other platform and I went and looked there and.
02:54.48
Tom
I’m I’m excited about open and curious as ah as a principle of life for for healthy human nature which is my thing is what are the truths about healthy human nature. We’re humans so there must be some truths and I’m convinced from.
03:12.51
Tom
The the that that open and curious. So I I’m so excited about your project.
03:19.75
Craig
Um, well thank you before I hit the big Oddly it’s blue before I hit the big blue record button. Um, we were talking a little bit about your ideas I always enjoy hearing people tell me their perceptions of anything that I do because I don’t know what your perspective is right. So you were describing. Um what I would call an embodied learning experience. So like you you bump into this idea. Craig’s going oh I’m curious opening curious. It’s a thing about mission and discovery conversation and Tom was like that’s interesting and like put it in the back of his head and then like a week goes by and then you were telling me before. About some experiences you had about how this sort of to put words in your mouth how it fit into like it just slotted itself right in and I think you made a great point about you said something to the effect of um I’m just going to first person. It. So I make the mistake. Of thinking that I understand or feeling like I have control over complexity and then that leads to me trying to assert my will and in order to be open. That’s like the exact opposite like if that’s a knob like asserted and I’m in control and I’m right is like 0 and you turn the knob craigs over like on 11 which is a. Movie reference I’m over like on 11 on the open and curious style. So I thought that was a really good point I was glad that you um, yeah, glad that that that was that that drew your attention that open and curious is just it’s not like a guide or a rule. It’s just this. Yeah, that’s.
04:50.94
Craig
Kind of what it means to be human I think or functional human or.
04:54.40
Tom
Ah, um, unless you’ve been mistrained to think you’re supposed to know the right answer all day long that you’re supposed to not have any problems that you’re supposed to be perfect which you know not everybody gets that memo.
04:59.62
Craig
Right.
05:11.20
Tom
But a lot of us get this memo who didn’t get it early in life begin to get it in middle age I’ve never I’ve never had this thought before but ah the the middle age thing. What what is our culture call it the midlife crisis. Well the midlife crisis is really getting oh my goodness.
05:16.47
Craig
Um, yeah, stop asking questions just put your head down and do yeah.
05:30.60
Tom
Oh I’m not so I’m not supposed to keep trying to be perfect.
05:35.40
Craig
Well, there comes a point where you look back on your life and you go Well how did that work out for me so far and either you you say? oh it’s going good and you keep going in which case you haven’t reached your midlife crisis yet exactly.
05:49.29
Tom
Yeah, ah, there’s hypothesis. That’s but I agree make sense because it’s so easy in this is and I’m saying this you can’t see me but I’m saying this with empathy for our culture for those of us who live in relatively safe developed cultures of the world where we can get away with thinking. There aren’t problems and thinking. Oh yeah, it’s good enough. It’s good enough is good enough right.
06:17.60
Craig
Um, yeah, this is under control you What there’s a cartoon meme about this. It’s a dog sitting in a room and the room is catching on fire and the dog’s like everything’s fine. That’s like a whole meme. Yes, exactly? um.
06:27.46
Tom
But wait. Okay wait wait where I’m kind to pull this back I Think from what you just said to to So So now I’m excited about your project and you got me the way you reflected back to me what I shared with you. Earlier about my percolating about oh open and curious from my subjective experience and how how enriched I am with how many moments I’ve put my attention my life attention in real life.
06:52.30
Craig
So.
07:06.70
Tom
Really only start I mean I was excited about your project. But then I only really chose to put any focused attention on it me attention learning attention on Sunday and Monday and now it’s Tuesday and this this morning and and what I didn’t I didn’t spend more than.
07:25.62
Tom
An hour and a half in all these different moments and my life is enriched with my next level of subjective my subjective experience of valuing what I’ll call my the skills of my so self skills of oh.
07:29.85
Craig
Cool.
07:44.22
Tom
Being open and curious while I’m talking to you.
07:50.21
Craig
Thank you! That’s high praise. Okay, um, ah.
07:51.38
Tom
What it’s and it’s also reinforcement in my opinion you’re on something. Okay, no wait wait wait wait wait. We know I got I’m interrupting I’m in a I’m interrupting you I’m interrupting you and I mean I.
07:59.10
Craig
Um, yeah I I don’t want to say I’m I’m onto something Tom’s onto something and I just said got.
08:10.83
Tom
I started interrupting you when you said 11 you were on 11 okay, okay, so now I had this thought. Okay so open and curious as I have as I’m continuing to study. The topic I’ll say the topic. The experience is a better word. A topic can be so conceptual the experience and my subjective experience of studying the experience of the the that the words open and curious helped me go in that direction.
08:28.38
Craig
Yeah, yes.
08:46.34
Tom
Is some from my first brain science mentor or my so yeah, my first specific brain science mentor he wrote a book called the developing mind and I’m gonna see if I can reach it real quickly ah to get. The oh to get the sub this the subhead. Yeah, the developing mind how relationships and the brain interact to shape who we are okay ok my culture does it does does didn’t teach us that.
09:07.15
Craig
Caution.
09:19.52
Craig
Mum.
09:23.48
Craig
Um, yeah, that’s not front and center.
09:25.37
Tom
My culture. Yeah, my culture taught me I’m all on my on my own and I can’t I can’t learn from the other kids in third grade or or no and we can’t learn from those people. they’re not they’re they’re not good people but etc e cetera et cetera and. Oh oh okay, and then now learning this later and like after I’d had my midlife. My midlife revival midlife revival I got oh I didn’t learn some basic basic things early in life and one of them was.
09:54.13
Craig
Um, Midlife revelation rather.
10:04.87
Tom
My parents didn’t do didn’t know that so they didn’t see me they were open and curious about well who is this? who’s this 18 month old weirdre alien creature from from us and our experience ah in our 40 s.
10:09.80
Craig
On.
10:24.38
Tom
And so so my ah back to why I’m sharing this so in the in the middle of his book. Yeah I don’t need to he he’s he’s studying. He’s integrating the the brain science of the late 80 s and early 90 s and the 90 s I believe was called the. Decade of the brain and so there was all this ah high level neuroscience and and science going on and he’s a psychiatrist and he’s he’s influenced by this science but he has questions about it like so he’s open and curious about the science.
11:02.47
Tom
Of how a brain gets to be in balance. He doesn’t use. Didn’t use the word imbalance but he’s a psychiatrist so he’ his his his genre in the world. This thing is mental health. Okay, ok oh oh, a lot of us humans.
11:13.32
Craig
Right.
11:19.49
Tom
Yeah what’s what’s the truth about mental health and so he’s studying brain science and then he’s studying something called attachment science which is fifty years of attachment science which is who study early childhood relationships and so he’s he’s has this. Big question that he’s studying those questions and that he’s writing that book and he tells a story in there. So he’s doing this He’s doing this trying to synthesize those 2 things and and and a physics principle called complexity theory about about clouds and that clouds actually have some. Ah, they’re not just random ah chaos. They’re not just chaos I guess it started with chaos theory and and it’s not something I’ve put a lot of attention on so he’s so he’s he’s he’s percolating all of these while he’s in the process of writing these book and he tells his story is.
11:59.81
Craig
Alright.
12:16.45
Tom
He’s in the middle of the night. He’s he’s saying oh oh, you need to be open to learning open to we’re live systems open systems are always changing because we’re receiving input of the time.
12:35.85
Tom
Okay, okay, and then but if we’re too open as humans we go into chaos and if we’re too rigid to I know I know the way it’s supposed to be. We’re too unopened to learning.
12:51.47
Tom
And so he’s he’s putting those together at this point in his and he like oh my goodness and he comes up with this term maximal complexity that oh max this when I’m open enough.
13:05.80
Tom
In the moment open and curious enough in the moment for us right now see it applies all the time now I’m I’m linking it but I’m not too open so I’m chaotic and nobody can understand so so I’m I’m talking slowly here for us because you you. You? Ah you you went in that direction when you said 11 and and and your mother your story about your mother like you’ve always been this way Craig and your and your and so yeah and so it’s how to find the balance open and curious. With in the context of this the life situation in the moment see I can even feel oh I’m talking a little bit I’m I’m feeling I’m I’m a little over more on the open and curious without being the.
14:01.51
Tom
The the leader the team leader of my body for us and now I’m finished and back over to you.
14:09.82
Craig
Um, I think the point that you make about that balance is is critical I’ve I’ve seen that point made in like biology like at a cell level too. So it’s there’s an interesting like multi-scale like what what does it mean to be a country. What does it mean to be a person. What does it mean to be a bacteria. Um, and I think that I certainly didn’t um you know if you asked me in the elevator. What’s open and curious I’m not going to talk about complex theory and chaos theory. Um, but I really feel like the question a question that I get a lot when I’m talking to people who are trying to make podcasts with guests. They’re like how do I direct this conversation I really really really want to talk to Tom. But how am I going to direct this conversation. To go where I want it to go because I’m trying to serve my listeners or I’m trying to I’m trying to learn something like so they have this very well-intentioned urge to control and direct which you and I were talking about earlier and I’m on and I’ve said for a long time. What I’m going to say in a second but I’ve never realized that I was actually trying to counter. That human urge to control I didn’t didn’t realize that until we were just you were just explaining it now. But what I say to people is if you develop your curiosity. This is what I’ve been saying for quite a while if you develop your curiosity. You can’t help but end up going where you want to go.
15:32.33
Craig
Because you’re going to wind up asking. Oh I got 20 questions and I got 7 minutes I guess I’ll ask this question well guess which one you’re going to pick unless you’re a psychopath. You’re going to pick the question which is interesting to you and interesting to the guest. And standing on Broadway in Manhattan I’m probably going to suggest that we have for coffee because that’s what I like but then you might say let’s have tea so we end up having a beverage like your curiosity will always lead you somewhere and once you refine that and that’s where I think. Where the word open came from like I don’t want to just be curious because then I just walk around going why why why why why why? Why? like then it’s just rabbit holes everywhere I want to be like open to learning but I also want to actually go somewhere in particular. So I think once you build your curiosity muscle like as ah, speaking about like people who are podcasting.
16:21.29
Craig
As you build that curiosity muscle and you get better at not trying to go somewhere in particular but trying to be really clear to yourself about what’s what’s salient. What’s important right now and then just be open like hm one classic one I say all the time is. Just grab 2 things that pop into your head and and staple them together like I wonder if this and this are related because the 2 things that you grab are going to be related to the conversation. So if I say I wonder if battery park and pizza are related. You know if you’ve ever been to Manhattan people just went hm I mean like battery parks all the way down at the bottom and I know there’s. You could probably eat all the pizza in Manhattan on the way to but like your conversation will just follow that curious that curious drive that you have so that’s just 1 thing I wanted to say about your your point about balance makes more clear to me why something I’ve been saying may actually be true.
17:17.41
Craig
Tom’s nodding along. We’re just leaving space.
17:22.32
Tom
Ah, well so I’m doing the I don’t have my 2 hands stapled together something I do is Craig and I can see each other I’m holding my hands up in front of me towards the video towards the camera towards Craig. So okay and see now I even forget what they were so I forget that’s I forget what they were but no battery park and pizza. Okay, and then.
17:48.74
Craig
That’s okay because your brain won’t forget oh and pizza.
17:56.68
Tom
I didn’t know where you were going to go with that and then you did that? Oh you could probably eat all the pizza on your way to battery park which was so such a surprising thought to me now I have been to battery park and I have been. To Manhattan a few times I I grew up twenty miles from in New Jersey from from from New York and worked in in wall street in my summer jobs in when I was in a teenager. Um.
18:19.96
Craig
Ah.
18:33.23
Tom
So the 2 things that’s what that’s why I have the 2 hands. Oh so what I heard you just say took me in the direction of my learning over the last few years of I would get out of balance.
18:51.38
Craig
I Too self-diagnosed with this problem.
18:51.44
Tom
But having too many ideas with too many things. Okay and ah and then I wouldn’t get anything done and then I’d get bat mad at myself because I wouldn’t get anything done.
19:06.63
Craig
Yeah, just.
19:09.45
Tom
Eventually though, eventually though’ll see this is mid mid midlife revelation or whatever I said before is I began to oh see the repetition of this problem and realize it was a me Problem. It wasn’t anyone else’s Fault. It wasn’t it wasn’t in the water or the the weather and then so um and and along the way and this may or may not relate. But I think it does I would see oh I’m making the task. The work task or the relationship task more important than me. So So of course I’m out of balance.
19:52.46
Craig
Yeah.
20:00.99
Craig
Um, yeah, self-help. Yeah, knowing.
20:04.18
Tom
Ah, and so so then then I began to ah oh idea idea just just an idea. Okay I’m not agreeing to do the idea. Okay is just an idea do I is so don’t make the mistake tom.
20:14.86
Craig
Yeah.
20:24.20
Tom
You’ve agreed to this idea or they should agree to this idea is just an idea. Do you want to stop what you’re doing because you had this idea and or do you want to put that on a shelf and think about it later. That’s easy. That’s an easy question. that’s a 2 that’s 2 let’s that’s do this or do that.
20:37.26
Craig
Yeah.
20:43.60
Tom
Oh that’s an easy one. You don’t need to overthink it or get a masters in anything. But.
20:50.73
Craig
Um, or invent as I would do some complicated process for and but but but.
20:58.46
Tom
Ah I know that one too. However I’m I’m hypothesizing I never was and probably never no and have no ambition to be as skilled at process building as you’ve.
20:59.39
Craig
I’m like a proous builder I build systems that crazy crazy crane.
21:16.59
Craig
It cuts it cuts both ways. You know it’s like a force multiplier like I I can get more done with 1 hand tied behind my back than I couldn’t if I wasn’t as processed nerdy. Um, but I also just as you were saying I have to be very aware of.
21:16.70
Tom
You’ve you? Yes yes, run.
21:30.72
Craig
Um, I often think of things in 2 directions like if I have an idea for a way to make this show better. There’s two ways I need to make that change going forward on future episodes and then I immediately go oh I should go backwards and fix the 130 that’s like ah you know like ah but if you’re a processed nerd that’s like and.
21:44.14
Tom
Yeah I know that one? yeah.
21:49.76
Craig
And the urge to like no remainders to clean up all the details to figuratively clean your plate. That’s a hazard for me at all times.
21:54.26
Tom
Oh ah, I’m having empathy. Yeah and I’m having empathy for getting the I have that very well I’ve discovered it in the last five or six years.
22:10.14
Tom
In a very in a minimal way I’ll I’ll be like Wow I’m I’m at this new level of my skill at doing living my best life every day and then I used to I used to? yeah then I would immediately start to compare to the way I used to be and.
22:28.13
Tom
And I would do that enough times eventually I was no, that’s not a good strategy for learning strategy staying moving forward strategy I’m I’m convinced now Craig you can do with with it what you want but I’m convinced that the going back is.
22:32.45
Craig
Yeah, yeah.
22:45.87
Tom
Is draining and it’s it’s we learn to do that I mean it’s in our school system. What do we got? We got report cards that said we didn’t do it good and and and yeah, yeah, without the the team leading like.
22:54.90
Craig
Yeah, here’s your marked up returned paper with all the red here you go here’s your mistakes. Yeah.
23:05.30
Tom
Yeah, okay, don’t go backwards focus on what you did well focus on what you did? well.
23:08.43
Craig
Yeah, and go forward I think what drove it home for me was I’d go back and I’d start cleaning things up and I’d get part way through beginning to clean it up and I would learn something else and I’d be like okay you know if I had just gone forward. From where I was I would have also learned something new. So it’s like I I find that when I go backwards like when I return to work that I’ve already done I get in like this tighter entire spiral of more and more navel gazing. You know it’s like going to go around in circles and when I when I go yeah okay I did 100 and whatever episodes of that. But that’s just one show. It doesn’t need just okay like oh turn aroundund what’s next you know and like I may have made mistakes I’m not going to make the same mistake again if I can help it so it doesn’t mean I have to rewrite history. So I think the internet makes that worse because like you know I push publish on a podcast unless I go to the trouble of deleting it. It’s pretty permanent.
24:04.97
Tom
Yeah, Okay, okay.
24:05.59
Craig
Um, so I’m watching our time fly by maybe I will just say if anybody is going guys guys where where is this thing It’s open and curious.org will get you where you need to go. It’s currently a bunch of writing trying to write every week I’ve been a total slacker for many months I’m sorry I’m on it and it’s awesome I knew I wasn’t going to get that out.
24:26.35
Tom
So but way way way way way way wait way why I havet I way way wait wait way way way way rare I have a message I have a message Craig and for anyone else listening.
24:36.00
Craig
Do did it did it just news flash.
24:45.18
Tom
It is it makes sense that you used the word sorry I’m sorry who we okay and I’m not goingnna ask, but this is a rhetorical question who are you saying sorry to okay, that’s a different topic but your your i’m. Hypothesizing Craig I know you well enough I know you just a little bit but I know you well enough to know that you have a high commitment to do your best. Okay, okay, okay so I don’t know what.
25:13.56
Craig
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
25:20.87
Tom
If that was a hypothetical but it’s not a hypothethetical that you going back there and and and and saying sorry yes, this is my message. It does not make sense world. To say sorry when you’re doing your best at you living your life and leading your life forward.
25:42.45
Craig
Like a point which I need to tattoo on the inside of my eyelids cool. So yeah, new podcast coming soon. But the writing is out there now and I’m continuing to write I need me to cut you off. Um.
25:50.26
Tom
Ah.
25:58.66
Craig
We’re a little bit over time but um, anything else that you’d like urgent have to I don’t really think I have a choice to’s like I have to do this so cool. Well all right Tom I will just say thanks so much for.
26:02.99
Tom
No I’m so glad you’re on the job of open and curious.
26:16.78
Craig
Um, both taking the time and actually suggesting this is I mean it’s not a really really original idea. But it’s not something I would have said hey who wants to volunteer to come and be on the show and help me figure this out but I really appreciate you taking the time and coming at me, you know via a message like hey what if we got together and did this thing dot dot dot. So I really appreciate that as well. Thank you very much.
26:36.22
Tom
Thank us.