Work Ethic - with Mark Tweddle

Work ethic, preparation and storytelling

work ethic

@Mark

Transcript

00:00.00
Craig
Hello I’m Craig Constantine welcome this is the podcaster community show short conversations that are not just about podcasting because I like to take the scenic route. My guest today is Mark Tweddle welcome Mark how are you.

00:16.33
Mark
I’m good. Welcome welcome to you too. It’s great to see you welcome to your own podcast.

Summary

00:19.25
Craig
Gets interesting when it’s all yeah double-ended virtual. It’s like I don’t know you’re not of my place I’m at a your place who’s welcoming who um yeah I As with every conversation watching the clock tick I’m always oh, there’s so many things I want to pull on. Um, let’s start talking about.

00:30.33
Mark
Um.

00:36.55
Craig
Work and I mean like the work of creating podcasts so we were talking before and I think you made some great points about um, let’s say the pressures that are now being put onto. I going to say the engineering department of audio podcasting lens I think you made a great point about how engineers the people you know in the headphones you know in a sound booth. You know editing audio are sort of being drug kicking and screaming into the internet we say drug into the twentieth century which is not the current one.

00:53.59
Mark
Yeah.

01:05.00
Mark
Yeah, life. Yes.

01:09.70
Craig
Drug into the twentieth century to learn how to use these tools and and maybe if you could can you share with me the story that you kind of highlighted and we were talking before about how you mix together like what I’m going to call real audio engineering skills of 1 person with a team on your wife’s podcast show.

01:27.83
Mark
Yeah, my my wife’s podcast is um is actually the names of the 3 hosts which is unusual in itself. There’s 3 of them so Ferguson Harrington Hawkes and the challenge of that was um because there’s 3 of them plus a guest. So when it became how do we edit that it was all put on to Neil Harrington who has this? um, wonderful. Ah audio production company source productions that’s as a uce and he was struggling his how how do they? How do they collaborate because he lives in the world where he’s the guy with the headphones and um I’m doing all that kind of technical work whereas me I’m not the purest so I’d been using this thing called descript which gives you a transcription. A kind of rough transcription especially when you’ve got a scottish accent a very rough transcription and then you edit the transcription and then that directly sorts out the audio. So so Neil was not interested in that at all but where it became really key was descripts ability to.

02:23.85
Craig
Um.

02:36.86
Mark
Publish a page on the internet with that transcription and audio so that everybody could comment on it and then that allowed them to collaborate together and initially he was kind of skeptical about it. But what it gave him was my wife is a brilliant editor.

02:43.58
Craig
Um.

02:56.71
Mark
As far as story like my wife and I that’s what we work in we work in to do using storytelling for coaching and for and team building and so um, she would be able to look at how the episode flowed.

03:09.74
Craig
Um.

03:10.63
Mark
Decide quickly. What needed to get removed just highlight it on this page. He’d get all the timecodes he just then had to follow the notes and then they brought in Chesney as well because he he does the music he does this weird thing with music where um, the guest gets to choose a song that affects them. Emotionally. And then he’ll do a cover for it. So he’s doing a cover song for every episode and it gets them out a lot of the kind of licensing issues as well. That’s initially why they did it but it it creates an incredible intimacy. But then it means that he can if there’s something that maybe he said that he doesn’t want to go further than.

03:28.70
Craig
Every episode. Oh.

03:46.65
Mark
The the people who are having that chat then he can get rid of that as well and just they collaborate together and then they all found it So useful he now uses it with his with his real clients. He’s got ah for you know for adverts and um and other you know, professional podcasts that he does for other companies.

04:00.61
Craig
Um, so I don’t know if that’s I mean I’m sure that’s what descript was intending that was for but I have always so I don’t personally use descript I’ve I’ve seen it I’ve been inside of it but I haven’t It’s not a tool that I’m using but everybody that I’ve heard describe it so far and this is just the gang of podcasters that I’m running with. Everybody that I’ve heard so far has always used it as I’m going to say a power tool for their own use and like power tools are great until like you slip off the screwhead and like get yourself in the leg with the screw Jar. You know like you could do a lot of damage with power tools and I think it’s a wonderful um point or a wonderful story that you’re sharing. Ah. About maybe this tool that I know I have had pigeonholed in my head as power tool for me to manage audio. Um, maybe there are tools other tools that were misusing the wrong word. But.

04:53.55
Mark
Well.

04:53.97
Craig
Can you think of any other places where in podcast space. Maybe we’re using the wrong tool for the job or we should try picking up a different tool.

05:01.94
Mark
Um, well actually in that one. We also discovered a thing where one of the guests. Everybody was so enthralled with the conversation. They didn’t notice that he did an awful lot of he touched his microphone and stuff and so they had all this sort of additional noise that was to be getting gotten rid of.

05:13.76
Craig
Um, that.

05:19.30
Mark
And um, Neil was distraught with it because you know it was the best conversation he really wanted it and annoyed with himself that he hadn’t noticed while they were listening because he was so enthralled with the conversation and all the tools that he had there was none that he could just cut flick a button and get rid of this stuff. He was having to get rid of every click. Every. And deal with them individually and there was it was just too much and for what is ah essentially a ah nonpaid gig. Um, and what I did was put it through de scripts ah studio sound and it it cleaned up most of it and like yeah, um.

05:42.95
Craig
Right.

05:52.72
Craig
Um, please fix button right? Ah apply magic.

05:57.46
Mark
And that was it gone and he was he was amazed that that were as well. He was like I think that’s what made it easier to actually get him to do the collaboration side of it. He then start to see that there was something else in this because he couldn’t he couldn’t get in his head was um or he struggled in his head with the fact that you know he’d spent thousands and thousands of pounds because he’s in the U K on tools to to fix audio and makes everything sound the way he wants this to fix it. So how could this you know $15 a month to fix it for you.

06:24.12
Craig
Um, yeah I mean tooling right? there. There’s a proverb or an old adage about you know you can tell how good a workman is by how good his tools like how he treats his tools not necessarily does he have the most expensive set but like you know does he treat his tools respectfully Although. My father who was a professional mechanic on elevators for his entire career used to tell a story about a guy you know like ah, an old grizzled elevator mechanic when my father was a greenhorn and my father shows up elevator mechanics bring their own tools. So My father has all these shiny new tools and this guy basically has like a bag of junk and when he gets to the Job. He literally just upended his tool bag on the floor and then like started picking through stuff and he’s got like bent screw just like a total and it’s junk and my dad says this guy like how what I mean how are you supposed to.

07:04.16
Mark
Oh.

07:10.31
Craig
And this all looks at my dad’s p play smoking a cigarette though at the time looks at my dad and says anybody can fix it with the right tools that takes a real mechanic to fix it with a peach basket full of shit and I was like okay so yeah, yeah, so you can spot a good you know Craftsman by how he treats his tools but there’s also something to be separate skill. But.

07:20.17
Mark
Oh man make it difficult for you.

07:29.62
Craig
I’m often a tangent one I was thinking was yes.

07:30.62
Mark
You you know what? it makes me think of is my friend Dave who when he was living with his own parents had his had a toolbox because he was working our car and stuff and he actually had a padlock on it that he wouldn’t give his father the key for because he knew.

07:47.46
Craig
Um, so ah, right? Yeah, the end that you use not the handle right? But the I but the good end in this. Ah.

07:47.60
Mark
His his his father’s the kind of guy that would start paint with an a dustrable wrech and wonder what’s the problem. Yeah.

08:00.14
Craig
But but when you mentioned thousands of dollars of tooling my thought ran to I purchased um the but whatever the pro version of Hindenburg which is not thousands of dollars but it’s it’s like hundreds of bucks and at the time I kind of hovered over the buy button because I thought but. When I bought the tool and actually spent some time learning to use it I don’t use it most of the time but every once in a while something weird happens and like the knowledge that I have far outweighs the money that I spent on the tool. So what I’m thinking is um, is it Ferguson you I don’t know if that says first namers last name but Ferguson’s skill set.

08:34.20
Mark
Yeah, lens.

08:36.52
Craig
Is probably like way more valuable certainly you guys way more valuable than the tools. So it’s just that that whole like sunk cost like yeah to get these skills I had to learn when I was a kid we had $4000 in pro tools like.

08:47.80
Mark
Oh absolutely Neil Neil and it’s it is yeah it’s Neil Harrington and yeah his skill set and his understanding of audio like they they just did um 3 live recordings in front of an audience at the Edinburgh festival.

09:00.46
Craig
Me.

09:04.89
Mark
And and so that sort of skillset is what comes in and you know he he um prior to doing the audio stuff he was a dj so he he just has that full body of knowledge around audio. That’s yeah, yeah, and and the same goes for you know Chesney.

09:15.41
Craig
Um, yeah, you’re steeped in that. Yeah.

09:23.52
Mark
Chesney Hawks who um, a kind of UKPop star he um his ability to do covers of a ridiculously broad range of music is over this world I mean 1 1 guest obviously didn’t realize what they were asking.

09:41.40
Craig
Um, yeah, or more. Ah.

09:42.14
Mark
Wanted him to do Bjork. You know you’ve got you. He did it. He managed it. He pulled it off I was I was just amazed that that that stuff has been um, quite illuminating as to how that works and when they. Prepared this. This might be useful for other people when you get that because it’s a big step to go from what we are doing right now which is using Zencastr and and seeing each other over online to actually sitting with an audience and running a show for an hour and and.

10:14.91
Craig
Um, no no.

10:18.86
Mark
Part of the preparation that these guys did was they um they decided they would run these Zoom calls and record 3 episodes and as if they were live so they could get the structure and the flow including including Chesney playing a song live.

10:31.34
Craig
Not smart Dress rehearsals. Yeah.

10:38.21
Mark
And so so they did that. Yeah and they did that with each of their partners. so so I did it as a guest and then Chesney’s wife and then Neil’s wife did it um and and that was really interesting watching that and watching watching the panic in their eyes that is try to try to deal with the time try to deal with all that stuff.

10:47.22
Craig
Ah.

10:57.78
Mark
Ah I’m waiting for my my wife actually comes back on Thursday so I kind of want a full debrief as to how that worked when the audience was there did it did it just the time just disappear and the and and the whole thing just happened or like like what was that experience because I have no idea what that would be like and the one who was.

11:01.86
Craig
Life.

11:08.79
Craig
We never.

11:16.79
Mark
Most and scared of it in a way was Neil because he’s he’s an audio guy Chesney’s used to standing up in front of large audiences. That’s not a problem to have thought yeah my my wife Len Ferguson she’s she’s very used to being. She’s a standup comedian does all sorts of performance type stuff.

11:24.85
Craig
Um, right, The show must go on right? yeah.

11:35.74
Mark
And she was doing. Ah, she’s been doing a play all about storytelling you know for the for the for the period after that so that wasn’t that wasn’t the problem either. It was just for him like what where’s my part… What’s what do I do what I provide because I’m normally with the making sure everything’s recorded. How do I How do I deal with that. Um. And that was all misplaced as well that the other thing that I would say is completely misplaced because he’s the guy that always does the research. He always does the pre-planning and the understanding who is the guest for the big areas that we might want to and like look into preplanning. Not. Am I going to say this on the podcast prelanning pre-planning is not always my wife’s best talent.

12:20.39
Craig
You know this is going to be out before she gets back. You’re in big trouble. Ah is that a challenge I I think there’s a great point buried in in there about.

12:25.50
Mark
Um I don’t need to tell what it’s on and Podcast Discovery is almost impossible. She’ll never find it. Ah.

12:36.79
Craig
Um, you know the parito principle. The 8020 thing about like and so for me, um, sometimes I’ll I’ll say to people I’m willing to do almost anything. There is an asterisk there I’m willing to do almost anything to be able to get to the part where I can press record. That’s what I want to do is the part between record and stop. That’s my that’s where my passion really lies. Um. But before I press record I’m willing to do a lot like I’m willing to spend like an hour doing research on every single guest and I’m willing to like pay for the tools and then I’m also willing to like I don’ know. Let’s try all these random stuff to know the way I was doing. It was the least worst way to do it keep doing that and I think that that leads me into before we were talking I asked you. What came to mind around podcasting. The first thing you said after a little delay was work and that led me to to like poke a little bit at like why your podcast season one ended like I know it ended in December of twenty one so like 9 made mine nine months ago and. We started talking about why you didn’t restart and you actually have the next 6 episodes are at some various level of existence and this whole discussion of like work and like when to call it good enough. This brings me back to so like what would it take for you to buy into pressing publish on season 2.

13:45.30
Mark
Ah, yeah.

13:48.38
Mark
Yeah I’m I’m almost entirely bought into publishing season 2 a couple of things happened during during that time one was I just got tired and our business kind of took off and I didn’t have the time.

13:59.94
Craig
No.

14:05.15
Mark
And the longer I left it the more difficult it was to come back to it and then I had a fantastic idea like this is this is blow your mind. Amazing idea I had this great idea which was that my 20 year old son I’d teach him how to edit.

14:10.47
Craig
Or you have that problem too.

14:23.24
Mark
And he could edit my podcast for me because that’s the bit I don’t want to do and I like this bit I don’t like that the the bit after I’d like the bit before because I love to research there’s not ah, there’s not data or information I’ve never a piece of data or information I’ve never loved it. You know I mean I I love to do it the bit before and I love to bit.

14:25.76
Craig
Nice but posted.

14:36.22
Craig
Yeah.

14:41.99
Mark
Be like here and present and now love that. But the editing not so much and I thought I’ll get fergus our youngest fergus tweddle. So I’ll get him to do it. It took him two weeks no of 3 I think is three and. And um, and and really all he done was remove the arms and ours and yeah and I think he think he was halfway through doing that and I showed him in descript that you could remove it with 1 click and he and he kind of wished he had done a bit more looking into how the tool worked and that.

15:16.32
Craig
Um.

15:20.46
Mark
That that really put me on a stall at that point. But then he also told me that it was actually good that he enjoyed listening to it. He hadn’t really heard me that way and he thought that that the episode was interesting so I was kind of stuck. And I then have been helping other people with their podcasts often to do with how to distribute them through stubstack or helping len with her podcast or I’m also helping um Scott Smith do ah, an interesting podcast which is called intimate fame. It’s not out yet. But. Basically what he does is he takes a point in history. Um, and previously he would have written a play. He’s a playwright but has made these one person. Um audio theater plays about that moment in history. So um, we’ve done 3 episodes. Ah, which is the first season which is about um oh god was her name there. Wallace Wallace Simpson who was you know married to the king who had to abdicate so so that’s the first one and now helping him add a 1 about Marilyn Monroe which is.

16:31.12
Craig
Edward said Edward.

16:37.83
Mark
Yeah I think so yeah, she she calls him wi she calls. You know she talks about Windsor and all that kind of stuff. So so they have their own name for each other. Um, so it’s dramatized, um plays about just sort of 1 point in history.

16:41.26
Craig
Me.

16:54.72
Mark
And so the next one is Mal Monroe which is so that’s the one I’m really focused on at the moment is Marilyn Monroe and she did this ah 3 hree -day photo shoot a little bit just before she died um with this incredibly famous photographer and they just were together for three days and nobody really knows what happens but he’s. Renowned for sleeping with his subjects and you know renowned for drugs and bad behavior. But also the best kind of photography for for vogue. Um, and so he’s picked those those things and he’s got this kind of thing plotted out. There’s going to probably going to be James Dean and um.

17:26.26
Craig
Um.

17:31.80
Mark
Elizabeth Taylor and you know there’s there’s all these things and it’s kind of interesting because it’s not that usual, kind of I’m used to host on mic or interview type stuff. So now I’m having to do you know theme music and also sound effects and.

17:38.56
Craig
Yeah, other formats that you’re more familiar with.

17:49.50
Mark
Making sure all at times together and so so as so I’m so of scratching my head for all of the stuff I learned when I did um video editing you know.

17:50.67
Craig
Um, so if you.

17:56.68
Craig
Do the video edit anything if you think about? Um, if you imagine season 2 being published like let’s let’s say it’s just going to be a 6 episode here. You go. It’s a minieries if you imagine that being published. What do you think that having it be published would add to your. I’m going to say like your personal value of it. So there’s a value in the creative work. There’s a value in the hard work There’s a value in story. There’s all these values about doing the thing but what do you think having it be published would add for you.

18:28.12
Mark
Um, you know I what I am and I think think this is probably what’s stopped me from publishing. You know that’s a throwaway comment that I said about Discovery is I’m very aware that.

18:45.33
Mark
I’ve published lots of things I don’t ah I don’t think I actually get much more from publishing it. There’s stuff that is published I’ve made though I mean when when I did video editing. We did four hundred and fifty Youtube videos in a year right I’ve I’ve put stuff out there. That’s I’m not worried about that or. And there’s not much more to be gained from that. What’s really interesting for me now is how do you actually make sure it gets in front of the people that you want it to get in front of that’s not necessarily a large number of people but it’s it’s the people that it would make a difference to so at the moment you know my my story to telling world. Business I want people to know that everyone’s a storyteller that our stories don’t have to be structured and those 7 different structures or or pretty much everybody uses the hero’s journey every every time every time. Yeah, you know, um.

19:34.82
Craig
Um, right, 3 seconds right and

19:43.77
Mark
Oh my gosh is it the here you know is that’s why you can’t find anything I watch on Netflix because it’s all the same story. It’s all the same story. Yeah yeah, and and then and and what what I got from those 6 episodes.

19:47.57
Craig
Um I I always say wild Dead Beat Horse right? Wild Dead Beat horse.

20:00.51
Mark
And and that’s what I started to get when I start to re-lesen was you know having a therapist talk about connection and he he had a very different point but he said connection is about self-connection first. So we do everything that we can get so we connect to orself first and then when we connect to ourself then we can connect to others. Think that’s a really good point. The musician because I a chesney for 1 of them and he’s he had some revelations as well about the theme of of what story does for him as music because he he tells his story in music. Um. And so like really what I do want to get these out because I am quite proud of them and I think I got some really good interviews but what? what? I really want to know is how do I how do I make it so that I can get it in front of people and people think it’s worthy of listening to that’s that’s the That’s the bit like how do I how do I get the people who really would gain most from it to find it and listen to it and I have no idea on that you know you hear you got you got 3 seconds tell me how.

21:07.50
Craig
I don’t know either. That’s a great question. No I have no clue. That’s a great question for everybody listening all 3 people hi mom for all people. Ah, but no I think there’s that’s a great I’ll stop from a great place to end. That’s also a really good observation. So um. I think as much as I hate this hate every time I think that’s probably a good place for us to stop today. Mark it was a pleasure to get a chance to talk to you 1 on one. We’ve been in a couple of calls. We’ve passed acrossed a little bit here and there but it was everything I hope they would be to get a chance to talk for 20 minutes so thanks for taking the time today.

21:26.88
Mark
Yeah, yeah.

21:37.61
Mark
Thank you for having me on the show I Really appreciate it. It’s fun to see you, fun to spend this time with you.