Transcript for "Voice - with Gaelen Poage"

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00:00.27
Craig
Hello I’m Craig Constantine. Welcome! This is the Podcaster Community show: short conversations that are not just about podcasting …because I like to take the scenic route. Our guest today is Gaelen Poage. Welcome, Gaelen.

00:14.72
Gaelen
Thanks Craig! It’s great to be here.

00:17.68
Craig
I Love getting a chance to talk to people multiple times you and I had um, did we I Forget we had like a pre-conversation then we had a conversation about we were talking about like process. How yeah outsource and tech stuff and.

00:32.20
Gaelen
Tech stuff. You know.

00:36.11
Craig
Things the podcasters love to talk about and then this was actually one of the first things that we scheduled was this conversation but we scheduled it like seven days out so in my head there’s like this wonderful melange of it like wait which conversation is this with Galen. Um, and when we were talking beforehand we were talking about. Um I asked people just like some free association things just to get our conversational juices going and I liked a comment that you made about how the medium of podcasting gives you this opportunity for free expression as you put it a rich experience or a rich opportunity. And I’m just wondering what your thoughts were when you went from writing blog posts or writing Facebook posts or writing for social media when you when you had the opportunity to first experience moving from that online written format to creating podcasts.

01:31.45
Gaelen
Great and thanks for asking. Um I would say at at first you know because I want I’m the kind of person who wants to do things well and I think a lot of people are out there I’ve I’ve because.

01:50.88
Gaelen
The podcasting workshop that both you and I have attended as Seth Godin’s kind of suggests like maybe starting with a shorter form and you know just to be able to get yourself going doing maybe fifteen twenty minute segments or something. Um. That whole being a good student part of me kicked in and I I was trying to do that. But then the concept that I had for my podcast was it just didn’t fit in there. You know and that became very apparent when ah.

02:21.56
Craig
How how long did it take you to figure out like did you do there. There’s a classic exercise that comes from Eric Newsoms book like coming up with 12 or 10 or fewer words that describe your show. So did you do the exercise dick. Do you have a short description of your show.

02:37.85
Gaelen
Yeah I I could I’ll just have to do it off the fly I’m sure I went through that exercise and I’m sure it was so painful for me because I’m the kind of person that just likes to talk and talk and and I I have these big ideas and I want to I.

02:47.40
Craig
It’s hidden.

02:55.93
Gaelen
1 thing about me is I understand one of the ways I process and understand things is by talking about them so in the talking about them.

03:02.30
Craig
Um.

03:08.90
Gaelen
That can go on a long way like you hear my process to get to the nugget and the downside is you don’t get the nugget and the condensed nice clear description right away. But.

03:18.55
Craig
But isn’t the beauty of podcasting that you could you could like well you could edit it down but you could also do it and then listen to it the next day and then do it again and you could refine it like it’s not a live medium I think that’s one of the big advantages.

03:33.65
Gaelen
That’s true and I think there’s a benefit also to hearing someone’s process as well. I mean for me. Um I feel like I grew up in an era where I saw a lot of people that did amazing things on Tv and. You know these mediums where it was already produced and you never got to see it was a kind of a very rare thing to see their process getting there and then if you the.

03:57.34
Craig
More behind the scenes was like a thing. Wow they’re doing a special behind the scenes you never got to see that.

04:02.81
Gaelen
Right? It was a lot harder right? You couldn’t just go click on the Youtube or something like that. There was no Youtube right? So you had to somehow like inside the actors studio was the first thing that I remember giving you kind of a look behind the curtain. Um. And and so I love that. But you know you had to go find the Dvds and go buy them and that wasn’t always easy to find now. It’s a different world. So anyway to to get back to what we were talking about um on my podcast when I am um. Interviewing I guess part of of that I like to leave in some of me kind of ah figuring out the concept talking with that person them kind of thinking I want my audience to be able to hear people working through it because. Like as an audience member as as a lifelong audience member myself you know I I want to be able to what am I trying to say here I’m finding my way and. If I can watch somebody else’s process of finding their way then that can help me in mine as well.

05:20.17
Craig
My mind leapt to a quote and it always bothered me when I can’t think of the attribution but I don’t recall, but there’s a quote about if you see someone’s footprints in the sand you can see the path that they took. But unless you can actually have the person like talk to the person but without the person you can’t see where they were going like you don’t know why they were on the Beach. You don’t know whether they were going for a stroll or whether they were trying to get somewhere and I think that’s um I I agree with what you’re saying because for me that. Is part of the joy of having guests on this specific show and then having the opportunity for myself and the guest to go proverbially for a stroll and people get to see both the footprints in the sand and to see where we’re going. They can see us figure out. You know, like. Getting hungry and wants not for lunch or you’re like no let’s let’s keep talking about this particular tech topic or whatever it might be that day before we wander too far Afield. What’s naming your podcast.

06:27.30
Gaelen
My podcast is called not lost in the crowd and to give you the short shorthand for that. It’s 4 people that are still um on the the journey of finding their voice. There’s like what they specifically? um.

06:32.16
Craig
Keep going.

06:47.90
Gaelen
Can speak to that will help others that people will gladly support them for and and that creates positive change in the world finding their voice and then finding their audience so who are those people that really need to hear what they have to say and benefit from their wisdom and insight. And that will gladly support them as well because that’s a deep belief in mine is that there’s a lot of people with a lot of wisdom and a lot of good and doing a lot of good in the world and a lot of them are not supported in a way where they can really. Dedicate their time you know and their energy to doing what they’re great at and what they’re meant to do and I think there’s not enough so of that and then yeah, it’s on that that do-gooder to kind of try and figure it out themselves. How to find their audience and find their voice and so my hope with my show is not only to help the people that are that are those do-gooders you know, working on it. You know to to get better at what they can do but hopefully to become kind of a nexus of of connection and support too. Where. People can come and find people doing good work and support them and these connections can be made easier and faster and then there’s more good in the world and there’s more you know dogooders in the world and there’s some sort of mentorship and it’s not just you out on your own.

08:18.80
Craig
Um I like that you that you’re focusing in or that one of the things that you’re really trying to work on is helping people find their own voice and I think that there’s a very close relationship there to. Your self-professed way that you like to talk through like you like to show your work in how you find your voice or your like purpose for a particular project and there’s a strong connection between that and building a podcast for people to show them how to find their voice. You’re both, You’re both.

08:55.44
Gaelen
Oh yeah, this is so for me too by the way.

08:57.35
Craig
Doing it and trying to show them how to do it. Do you have it like on a two day delay and then you listen to your own work. Um, how how are you all like on the balance of work. So it’s 1 thing to say I’m a you know one could say I’m a talker I I think. Resolve issues by talking them out. It’s 1 thing to say that because you’ pretty much that’s like a real-time thing but then making a podcast can very quickly become ah a sand you know a quicksand of well I did all the work of collecting all these conversations but now with my eyeballs and stuff and I have to figure how to edit it. So it’s it’s much easier in a bad way. In podcasting to swamp yourself whereas you can simply talk to work through an idea but with a podcast you can simply swamp yourself before you can get it out I should just say actually just that are you swamped? Um, so.

09:40.30
Gaelen
Oh I’m totally swamped I’m completely swamped.

09:49.41
Craig
What are your thoughts on how you’re going to get unswamped like you know you realize of course if you stay swamped then you don’t chip you know ship your thing in which you know would be better if you did ship it. So how are you going to get unswamped.

09:56.38
Gaelen
Right? Well I’ve got a few ways that I’m working with that. Um, thankfully I have that podcasting community that I’m still in touch with from the from the Seth Godin workshop um I’m playing with the descript tool for editing seeing if that can speed up my own editing process where I’m able to do it via transcription. But really I I want to to leverage an editor. I would like to get an editor to do the editing you know, but I tried this ah original company this one company I probably shouldn’t just name them on air but still bad. Still bad. Um.

10:44.25
Craig
It depends How bad were they if they’re really bad. Maybe we should shame them on her.

10:53.69
Gaelen
Yeah, they make widgets and I’m not making a widget I I need I need a real artist. Um, because that’s what I’m making as an editor and.

10:55.20
Craig
Now.

11:06.23
Gaelen
I Have a potential candidate I’m trying out potential candidates. But that’s my my game plan is to develop a relationship with an editor I don’t even know if that’s yeah so I’m I’m exploring that process and we’ll see if that ends up working out but the other thing is being able to pay the editor because and this is a tricky thing. For me to figure out too because I um I’m not putting I’m pretty clear that I’m not going to do any commercials or product placements in my in my podcast.

11:33.68
Craig
Right? You’re you’re what they would call an indie podcaster which is how I’m doing this. It’s an independent thing. It’s basically a hobby.

11:39.60
Gaelen
So I’ve got a you know ah plug for my coaching business at the end real short plug and my hope is that the podcast you know in addition to doing good in the world also generates more ah more coaching business for me. Ah, and also I was I was thinking you know, maybe there’s some way that I can set up ah some sort of Patreon thing and if I get a following you know I can just I think Amanda Palmer kind of first did this with her music. But um, you know set up some sort of thing where it’s like hey.

12:12.57
Craig
Yeah, yeah.

12:17.87
Gaelen
You know this is my art I Love to do it I Love to do it for you and it’s got its costs and let me just be real transparent about what its costs are and you know if you love it. Maybe you can support me doing it because the time and the money has to come from somewhere. You know and I’d rather be transparent about it and I really don’t want to whore myself out to ads.

12:40.18
Craig
Yeah, it’s a perennial challenge right? All anybody who’s a podcaster listening is nodding along like please tell me you guys are about to solve this problem right now and I think the answer is the problem. The problem is the way we’re looking at it and I think because. I mean there are lots of different kinds of podcasts I’m only referring to podcasts where there are people talking. There’s lots of other podcasts. But for podcasts where it’s people talking nobody pays for people to talk. That’s just not a thing that western culture is used to paying for imagine a situation where you had a great conversation or better yet. You were at some social gathering and a great conversation happened. When money exchange was exchanged like people just don’t pay for that people just assume conversation is free. It’s free to participate in a conversation. It’s free to listen to 2 people next do you have a conversation so podcasting I think anybody who’s trying to figure out how to monetize their podcast is not going to work. The only way it works is if you’re in the tall head high download numbers then you can have an advertiser. Um. And there’s a great quote about what happens when you have a triangle of 3 people and 1 person has to facilitate the conversation that doesn’t work out. Um, but I think that you’re on the right track by talking about your coaching business and how the podcast can be. Ah, source of opportunities for you. Um, literal opportunities like hey I heard your show and now I want to work with you but it can also be a source of opportunities for I’ve been listening to your show and then they’re talking about it with other people and like it causes these conversations to happen. Um not directly adjacent to you so it happens in that second order. Um, you know friends of friends kind of thing and I think that’s where podcasting generates revenue it clearly generates value but people are just not accustomed to paying for that value. Um I once took a whole show. God cool.

14:30.50
Gaelen
I Just want to I Just want to push back a little bit here and say yeah um I agree with you that they’re maybe not accustomed to doing that.

14:39.56
Craig
Um, how many podcasts do you pay for.

14:43.95
Gaelen
It doesn’t so whatever I don’t pay for any right now. So oh you proved your point. But so what? So what? Yeah I guess what I’m getting at is just because there’s a history of this.

14:47.37
Craig
Um, and I’m not saying that’s a problem in everybody. Well everybody says that so every podcast I’ve ever talked to. They all say that nobody pays for Tim Ferriss ’ show. They just go. It has ads.

15:03.76
Gaelen
Doesn’t mean that the model can’t change.

15:04.10
Craig
Oh sure. Um, but I’ll tell you what happens I ran an experiment I took my whole other show put it behind a paywall made made explain me to everybody what I was doing and said you know for $5 a month you can have 100 episodes and nobody cared. They just went. There’s a thousand other shows. They just changed the channel.

15:19.68
Gaelen
Okay, so what do you because obviously we’re going to talk about this now. So what do you think of the Amanda Palmer model and what she was able to accomplish right.

15:24.91
Craig
Um, sure. Oh she’s making she’s making music right? Yeah well people pay for music if you you want to go listen to music if I go to a concert I got to pay it for a ticket right. Or if I go to a music Festival I pay the festival and then it’s a big like people pay for music something in our heads. We’re used to paying for the performance of musicians. But we’re not used to paying for the performance of Conversationalists I Totally agree with you. This is a cultural thing. It’s not… There’s no reason why.

15:57.29
Gaelen
I also don’t I mean and culture can transform and it does transform and there was a time where people didn’t pay for music maybe Kings did but most people you know didn’t pay for music.

16:01.56
Craig
Sure.

16:07.96
Craig
Oh well, yeah, sure, but that’s that’s a little ways back culture changed one way. So I mean it’d be great if it changed back The issue that I see is because we have Gorillas in the room.

16:13.68
Gaelen
Um, yeah.

16:23.36
Craig
Have the large companies that are running the platform and the distribution. Um, the individual podcasters aren’t able to develop relationships with the people who are listening so everybody who’s listening in you know some player other than than than an open one. I have no access to them I can’t see their downloads I don’t have any way to reach them or to say hey please support me or some of the podcasting platforms. Um on link in the show notes that we put out with the episodes. So I’ll put a clickable link put that in everyone up says you know go to Patreon or come to the community and they take those out. So you click can’t click on that can’t leave the platform which is like but that’s how Instagram works too. So if you go on Instagram and you try to leave a link to a show Instagram doesn’t link up the url because that’s technically really hard. Not you know, but that’s one of the issues with having the the gatekeepers having a large entity that’s controlling access.

17:14.30
Gaelen
And I’ll confess too that you know I’m new to this So I don’t know but I guess I just am reserving the right to optimism right now.

17:22.42
Craig
Um, I’m day optimism. Yes, please I’m down for optimism but everybody who has a podcast. Um, even as far as I know even Seth doesn’t make effect I shouldn’t say that I know from personal conversation with Seth that Seth does not make money off the akimbo show but what does it do it lets him distribute his. Ideas. It’s like the modern version of a blog. It doesn’t make money off as a blog either but he makes money off other aspects of what he does and that’s great like this his gift you know of what he writes and what he shares so my gifts of what we’re creating here this this creates value I’m giving that value away for free. And in this particular case there is an online community associated. Well this show goes with the online community and there are people who choose to pay for that and like that works that community generates enough money to cover its costs. So I’m not. Saying that there’s no way to change what we’re doing or to change the way that it’s currently working but the way it currently works now is to don’t even try to figure out how to make money off your podcast itself figure out how does the podcast serve you so that you get excited to create it and then hopefully you’re creating something that adds. Teach the world in a positive way. Most people that I talk to are and then just make sure that there’s something else that you have going on so and we haven’t mentioned where you’re coaching. We need the domainium for your coaching before we leave but like you have this other thing that’s meant to be the source of revenue for you. You know? so. I didn’t there’s nothing wrong with having multiple things that make like a a loop you know like I love doing this I create this this leads to this and then over here is the thing that I get paid for you know and they go around in a circle of virtuous cycle. Um domain name for coaching. Let’s get that in here.

19:09.28
Gaelen
WWW Dot Embolden that’s E-M-B-O-L-D-E-N Coaching it’s all one word

19:21.87
Craig
Cool. You look like you were about to say something in response to what I was saying.

19:25.24
Gaelen
Um, no honestly yeah, there’s no need to argue about like I I feel like there’s probably more interesting stuff that we could talk about and you know I’m just someone just Learning. Um. How to be viable in I’m an artist learning how to be viable doing what I’m doing and so I’m you know it’s like there’s a little frustration because I’m trying to figure this out. Um, but yeah, there’s ah, there’s a beyond. The. It feels like such low end stuff to just talk about you know how to financially and technically make things work like I know that I got to do that. But maybe I think and maybe it’s more fun to talk about.

20:11.92
Craig
I Think it’s important stuff.

20:16.95
Gaelen
The the art and the passion and the purpose.

20:18.55
Craig
Oh sure, there’s definitely more fun parts of it. But everybody who’s podcasting knows that yeah working with microphones is the pain in the butt you know and you got to get them just right and everything gets to be set up and gain and there’s all this technical stuff which very few of us would say is particularly fun. But we all know that if I do that hard work then that lets me do the part of it that I’m really passionate about so I feel the same way about monetization I’m I’m nothing against it I’m a big fan of capitalism. It’s vastly better than every other system but that doesn’t mean that I ignore it. And or that I love it. I’m just like this is necessary. It’s important that things you know I like having a roof over my head I like having electricityities I meet the pay to electric Bill. So I’m not against talking about the things I think they’re very important cool all right? Um, yeah. I would just as much as I hate to say it. It’s like 21 minutes in so we probably should stop there. It doesn’t have to be the only time I get a chance to talk about these things on Mike or off so I’ll just say Galen. Thank you so much for taking the time for scheduling in for hanging out with me for 20 minutes

21:27.50
Gaelen
Thanks Craig I appreciate you making the time.