Transcript for "Preparation - with Danny Attias"

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00:00.00
Craig
Hello I’m Craig Constantonine welcome this is the podcaster community show short conversations that are not just about podcasting because I like to take the scenic route. Our guest today is Danny Atius welcome Danny

00:14.37
Danny
Thank you very much Craig.

00:16.95
Craig
I always say this all the time because it’s true I’m always excited when people manage to make time to join me. Everybody’s schedules. Especially now that we’re I want to say we’re back to normal times but especially as we’re all trying to like well now I can travel or now I can get back in the office or now I can. Get to this meeting order as we begin to slot back in suddenly the box like I took all this stuff out of of the box that is my life you know and now I’m trying to put it all back and it doesn’t fit so I think it’s a good lesson Likem I think I should not put some of this stuff back in but I’m glad that you were able you and I have been. I was going to say we’ve been trying to do this for ooh. It’s probably been maybe six seven eight months and I’ve been like hey and and you’re just super busy and I want to talk about I want to pick your brain about preparation. We. We talked about this a little bit before we pressed record and i.

00:58.90
Danny
Again.

01:13.96
Craig
I’m hesitant to say this because I don’t want to jinx so for either of us. But like I find that I do pretty darn well without any preparation I do before I do these recordings like I spent the last fifteen twenty minutes just like listening to your podcast and and reading some articles on Linkedin and just trying to like you know zoom in on Danny so that i. Didn’t have crazy stupid other stuff in my head. But other than that I don’t really prepare bios on the guests or try to figure out what they want from me I I just kind of you know, like try to get on the onramp so that when we get in when the lanes come together for this. We’re kind of going the same speed. That’s all I’m really aiming for and.

01:44.00
Danny
Are a.

01:47.42
Craig
I know that you you mentioned you have a bunch of presentations coming up that you’re basically now preparing for but then we talked about you have an episode of your show which is a bonus episode where you talked about 3 takeaways and you said that that was like the hardest thing you’ve ever done. The. You did it sort of as a video presentation kind of modeled like a ted talk and my immediate question was well wait. First of all, why did you prepare for it. Second of all what made it so hard about was it having to pull lessons was it trying to make it actionable was it video having not done video like what what was it about that.

02:23.10
Danny
Okay, so good question and yeah, the bonus episode which I think is slotted between episode 15 and 16 of saundersship and we can come back to what sunship is in a moment. Um I got invited to a talk I’m I’m a.

02:23.28
Craig
That particular talk.

02:37.49
Craig
Definitely.

02:40.90
Danny
I work in technology I’m a chief digital and information officer in the Uk. Um I work for a higher education establishment. 1 of the top business schools in the world. Um, and I used to work for a blood cancer charity and I I get invited to do a lot of public speaking. Um I was rated the number 1 chief information officer in the Uk last year. So that that’s the context I got invited to do a lot of public speaking and and what I say to them is happy to do a panel conversation. A q and a a fireside chat. Basically no preparation. And but if they want me to stand in front of an audience for 20 minutes well I’ve got to have a bit of a plan right? because I’m monologging and I mean to be fair even when I’m doing q and a I’m monologuing but I have to do a bit of preparation. So I got invited to a talk and it was a first physical event post.

03:20.67
Craig
Um.

03:32.87
Craig
Um.

03:34.40
Danny
Covid. Um, if we are in a post covid era and it was hybrid as well and I thought oh you know what someone said to me hey Danny you should do a ted talk sometime and I’m like that’s crazy and then I thought well that could be that could be fun. Um. So when I got invited. They always say let us know what you want to talk about give us a synopsis and I’m going. Ah I can’t I just I’m really really glad with a blank sheet of paper don’t give me a blank sheet of paper so I get them on a call I’m like let’s just talk and we talking and we say well I’m doing this. This podcast and it’s about seeing other people right? seeing the lives other people have and and being compassionate and I’m like okay well maybe if I can relate this to leadership. How does that influence my ability to be a leader and then tie tie the 2 together and I ended up kind of calling it. Um.

04:14.63
Craig
Empathy.

04:27.67
Danny
You know I think I call it lessons learned from speaking to leaders with purpose or something like that. So they’re like yeah that sounds great and I think well I’m going to have to make this fit into 15 minutes and have a plan and um I was freaking out. It’s probably extreme but but I was like. Wasting a lot of time staring at a blank screen.

04:46.66
Craig
Compared to the amount of time you would expand in wasting time for a normal presentation. It was a huge amount of time right? You’re like this time is not doing anything.

04:50.18
Danny
You right? and I’ve reached out to my my friend friend and fellow podcaster and former guests of this show daphna I can’t pronounce her surname so I try and she’s like Danny it’s reallyus you know. You kind of need a beginning a middle and end. You know you want to you want to let them know what you’re going to talk about talk about what you’re going to talk about and then let them know what you talked about and then the bit where you actually do the talking about try and break it down to 3 key things. So I built this grid where I had you know block 1 block 2 and block 3 and then block 2 was broken into three blocks. It was the 3 things that I’m going to talk about and I’m like this is so easy and I just thought right? What are the things that I’ve learned from talking to leaders with purpose and I just brainstorming things. Well you know privilege.

05:29.93
Craig
And.

05:48.50
Danny
Really plays a big part imposter syndrome plays a big part keeps coming up. You know these these things so like I picked my 1 2 3 and once I had my oh now you’re testing me how I’m trying to remember no, that’s okay I was like oh.

05:51.28
Craig
Right? But what’s the third way. What was the third one I don’t remember yeah I was ice sorry I know imposter syndrome is the first one. The.

06:07.51
Danny
And press this gender with the first one.

06:09.42
Craig
Privilege was another one sorry I was just like well we we kind of did the 3 of them we should do the 3 it’ll it’ll come back to us when we think of it we’ll drop it in.

06:12.15
Danny
Yeah, it might come back to me and ah and so I thought okay great I’ve got 1 2 3 and then I go now let me think about guests I’ve had who’ve really been strong on those particular topics. So I got a story right.

06:24.89
Craig
Just mean.

06:29.70
Danny
Tell the story make them feel the experience. So I’ll pick those 1 2 3 stories and then I just had to do an intro and then outro and then it was quite easy by that point. So I put my slides together which you wouldn’t see on the podcast but there is a ah video version. So I made it really you know, really importantly. Ah, whilst I was in front of a studio audience I didn’t reference the material on the screen I didn’t say you can see here so that it would work on a podcast and I also try and very ah, try really hard. Not ah to make things evergreen so that it’s not.

07:04.60
Craig
Ray.

07:04.66
Danny
Dependent on current affairs. You know you can listen to it a week a month a year later and it still works and that’s that’s really important because if it’s if it’s too current then it’s just not relevant after it’s been out. You know, go stale really quickly.

07:17.20
Craig
you you make ah ah I’m I’m resistant to you urge to open up my web browser and go look up the transcript for your other show but you make some really good points there about I’m going to say being aware of of as Seth.

07:22.90
Danny
Um.

07:33.45
Craig
Would say like who’s it for what’s it for so when you know you’re building a presentation that people are supposed to consume and it’s got to fit in the time and and you’re trying to create this arc my next thought is the podcast that you’re creating and the ones like this one that I’m doing where we’re we’re recording a conversation between 2 people.

07:33.46
Danny
Um, a.

07:53.61
Craig
It’s it’s basically impossible to do that kind of preparation up given the fact that I don’t want to like overload every one of my guests like okay, we’re going to have a pre-call and we’re going to spend a half an hour and we’re going to block it out like we could imagine doing that. But then you and I are like co-hosts on some show and you know we should both get paid and I I think I struggle. Ah, struggles over that’s a little over exaggerated but I often wrestle with I feel like I should do a better job making this conversation really serve the people who are that are listening and then I go yeah but how do I do a better job like I can’t.

08:23.71
Danny
Yeah.

08:30.40
Craig
I don’t know what the story arcs going to be so I can’t have a beginning middle and ending arn know so I make an artificial ending by having a time limit and I I can’t figure out what the 3 takeaways are going to be because I don’t know what’re going to talk about so um, do you have you noticed that like do you but how do you balance that.

08:38.15
Danny
Yeah, yeah, yeah, ah ah yeah, yeah, and by the way empathy was the third one. So empathy that the the whole point is you know sonship.

08:47.29
Craig
All of all the ones that I miss right.

08:54.24
Danny
So Sander is there a realization that other people have a life as rich and complex as your own and it’s when you realize that you know that’s that’s your empathy kind of kick in him and so that empathy is now fueling your desire to have a positive impact on other people’s lives. And then your imposter syndrome is your Blocker I can’t do it I’m not good enough which is why I’ve made the podcast so you can listen to all these people and they all suffer the same problem and you know what they’re good Enough. You’re all good enough and then the privilege is you know what don’t be shy about your privilege use. It.

09:23.96
Craig
Um, yes.

09:33.68
Danny
Leverage it make it an advantage to help those other people and and and those are the kind of the 3 the 3 key things your your question is really valid. It’s the arc.

09:40.41
Craig
Thank you for? Thank you for putting that back in by the way that’s perfect and that’s name and the name of your podcast is saundership is it does it have a domain name or is it on.

09:50.76
Danny
Yeah, so it’s sunship dot com um, it’s on Spotify. It’s on Itunes. It’s on absolutely everywhere I could get it and if you Google it. It’s my word so it Googles good and and so.

09:59.64
Craig
Um, cool, cool. So so back to my question of balancing.

10:09.86
Danny
When I started and I get invited to a few podcasts as Well. You know, let’s have a precall and I’m like guys we don’t need a precall but when I started I I started with a precall and um, what was happening is I was asking questions. They were saying things I was getting excited. There was energy. And I’m thinking this is the show. What’s going on and then we try and record and the energy’s gone like because we know the Arc We know the questions and one of the reasons I created the podcast is I’m really comfortable sitting here and talking as you can hear.

10:29.69
Craig
Oops.

10:47.79
Danny
Um, but maybe sometimes I don’t listen enough I don’t engage my own curiosity enough and um the podcast forced me like forced me to listen. Don’t get distracted.

10:59.10
Craig
Um.

11:06.45
Danny
Really engage and and ask questions. You know my deal with myself was don’t allow your voice to be heard more than 15% of the show because they’re tuning in for the guest they might come back for you right? because they like you and your style and your theme but they’re not coming to listen to you right? so.

11:19.44
Craig
But yeah, they’re following you. Let’s go on a journey. Yeah yeah, yeah.

11:25.83
Danny
This is like the 1 hour where I listen really and that’s great and you you hear so much more you discover so much more so I have had people literally who I’ve never met never met donor the background. Don’t know the story I’m like you know what shall I just press record and we’re just let’s have the conversation. That was episode 2 actually so um, yeah, even episode 2 episode 1 we did a little bit of prep for and and it worked really well. So I’m I’m kind of happier not doing that I also find I’ve got 1 episode. I won’t say my favorite because you know like your children you can’t have favorites but episode 7 at 8 kind of my favorite and and the reason is is because um, this wonderful woman Lena Sinel told me her story and I was like I was my jaw was dropping I was like what? no ah no, really. Wow and her story. We talk for an hour and a half and I didn’t cut anything other than the middle I cut it in the middle and made it part 1 or part 2 because her story had like the before and after and I did the um. Tune in next week to listen to episode Butbb but with some highlights and then on the second episode I was like previously on saundersship that that ah that was so much work. It was so much work to create those.

12:45.91
Craig
No.

12:55.36
Danny
2 minute snippets at the big I mean it took more energy than producing the entire series the the entire 2 episodes. So I just realized that’s not my thing the designing the planning the story arc the. Structure of questions is just not how I my brain operates and I’d rather just come and have a conversation and kind of get curious and curious I’m sure I’ve got the editing tech later where I can cut some stuff out where if it got a little bit boring or I could just stop in the middle and go right? Let’s just take a break there anything we’re not covering. Is there anything you want.

13:27.95
Craig
Right? Bathroom break right.

13:31.12
Danny
And we can. We can slip that back in later. So but it’s not live. We get the episode. We get the opportunity that very rare very rare that getting an opportunity I need to move things around sometimes it’ will cut some stuff out because either I think um, why do I make that comment I sounded really pretentious cut that out that that sounds bad.

13:50.59
Craig
I Know what you mean? um.

13:51.12
Danny
Or um, their point they they made their point like five minutes ago and and now it’s nerves or or waffling so let’s just kind of cut that out but but generally I just rather run with it and if I’m alive I tell you 1 more thing this the difference between live and pre-recorded.

13:59.19
Craig
Where.

14:09.48
Danny
Yeah, to me when I’m with a guest. It’s basically it’s live right? We’re live now I’m talking I’m gauging I’m focused. But if if I had to my first episode the the sneak sneak peek 60 seconds right ah what am I going to say how am I going to structure it I had to record.

14:11.16
Craig
Right? right.

14:29.27
Danny
A sixty second Christmas message for my my company a couple of years ago I’m not exaggerating when I said it was over a hundred takes and like how hard is it to go. We’ve had a great year. Thank you very much happy holidays. But right so it will be easier to phone a friend.

14:37.78
Craig
Um, right happy holidays. Um.

14:48.56
Danny
And look at them in the eye and then say it and I’ll get it in 1 take and I’ve got some stuff where I am doing doing it in 1 take without any problem because you got the energy and the drive and the engagement and when I’ve actually I’ve had to record some presentations during the pandemic and and they’re like oh no, we’re going to pre-record this.

14:50.63
Craig
And.

15:08.30
Danny
You know you’re basically standing on a stage and I’m like this is never going to work I cannot do it so what I need is I need you to do it but I need you to join me on Zoom and I need to have your camera on and then I’m going to do the presentation to you and then I’ll do it in 1 take and it’ll be fine and it was just perfect. But yeah this hold pre-recorded you’re in your room you’re hearing your own voice.

15:16.40
Craig
Right? right.

15:27.30
Danny
You’ve got no feedback through interaction or eye contact I Just can’t come to it.

15:32.88
Craig
It’s definitely I mean most people listening to this show I think are podcast creators or people who wish they could or are thinking about it or whatever. But but they understand like yeah, um, um, what myself. In fact, if I’m not by myself I get grumb because I can hear you in the background like it’s. We like people podcasters in closets. It’s totally a thing or under blankets or pillow forts. Um, and um I don’t want to say like it’s vicious, but because we’re by ourselves like literally working by ourselves all the time except for when we’re recording with the person so all the time. Outside of the interactive part. We can. It’s up to us to decide when is good enough. So what’s the parito principle eighty twenty rule and and you go well I could actually make this better like I know that if I did this I could make that and I could fix this and I could rerecord my intro and and it’s just so hard to go all right I mean it’s.

16:18.91
Danny
A.

16:26.42
Craig
Good enough I’m going to call this done and ship it.

16:27.26
Danny
Um, I’d say take that I can make it better and do do it make it it better next time on the next one and make them incrementally better each time rather than having to worry about reworking I did I have I did 2 live recordings of my show.

16:33.61
Craig
Yeah.

16:41.11
Craig
Amen Oh amen. Yeah.

16:46.31
Danny
Ah, one was in a kind of podcasting studio am I I’m very lucky at work. We have a we’ve built a studio that my team run so that was really nice getting a guest in and having a chat and then at the end not clicking leave meeting but actually going for dinner. Yeah, and if it’s should be lovely and.

16:58.68
Craig
Going to get a cup of coffee. Yeah, you’re right? yeah.

17:05.26
Danny
But another one we filmed and so when you’re filming. It’s difficult to cut the coughs and the you know oops and so it kind of felt like really pressured and it was in a like an extravagant London hotel right across road from the rips it was. It was pretty special.

17:10.80
Craig
And.

17:23.95
Craig
Posh. Yeah.

17:23.97
Danny
And we got a professional camera man in and I think that’s episode I can’t remember Harriet Green so there’s a video version of that and um, but also we got a cameraman but we couldn’t afford a sound guy so he had a camera. He had a mic and then he had another mike.

17:36.58
Craig
Um.

17:43.45
Danny
And then I had my regular yeti nano which I brought on a stand and plugs into my laptop but it’s designed to be pretty close, not from a distance and I put in the table between us and I was terrified that we’d done all this work and done this record this lady used to be the Ceo of Ibm asia pacific okay, it was kind of a big deal getting her time and um.

17:50.10
Craig
Um.

18:03.33
Danny
In the end his both of his audio streams were terrible terrible couldn’t use them So I’m like oh my God it’s me my Nano It’s just me and yeti and I listened to it and it was like way off in the background and I’m like.

18:05.68
Craig
Ha.

18:18.40
Craig
Um.

18:21.83
Danny
Okay, so I’m like crossing my fingers and I put it through all or or dophonic or phonic and it was great. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

18:24.12
Craig
Um, a phonic I can I think I remember you making a post about that we were because that we were talking about aphonic and you’re like look what I just did like saved by technology. Yeah.

18:39.79
Danny
I did write ah an article about that and and what a difference.

18:42.62
Craig
It’s challenging when you have all these different things that you’re trying to juggle and um I don’t do it for this show. I’ve often thought it be cool. But for my one of my other projects called movers mindset I’ve done that has like 130 episodes I think about 80 or so of them are done in persons that show is predominantly done in person. Um, and it’s usually just myself and 1 of their production assistant and I do all the audio mixing and we bring mics and stands. But it’s audio only no video and it is a delight to have a conversation with someone like we go to their space. You know like or their place and.

19:03.20
Danny
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

19:13.22
Danny
Um, yeah.

19:16.79
Craig
You know, walk into the you know I’m like walking around like let’s use this room the one that’s the quietest and like set our stuff up and talk with them before and it it takes this experience that I think most podcasters who would be listening are used to this digital you know Danny and Craig on flat screens. We’re not in the same room.

19:31.80
Danny
And if.

19:34.55
Craig
And it it like takes us to hold the level. So I Totally recommend if people get a chance Even if you do it just for fun. You know maybe I’ll use it maybe I won’t like try recording in person. The tech problems go through the roof. It gets hard. It gets complicated but it’s so fun.

19:39.36
Danny
Um, yeah.

19:44.77
Danny
I I definitely thought about I only had three days notice which is why I was so stressy but otherwise I would have bought a Zoom recorder and I would have got some little mics on stands and you know.

19:55.86
Craig
Ah, now we’re in the technology and gear. Yeah, he.

19:59.99
Danny
And I’m like ah this is I want an excuse but um, actually there is 1 other thing I want to talk about which which has just occurred to me. Um, so I kept saying last year I did the old and Mba if that a year ago today I was doing the old Mba Seth Godin look it up. It’s amazing and um, it’s where I got the word sander from.

20:09.55
Craig
Um.

20:19.62
Danny
And I had a lot of energy right? A lot of energy and and this as I was finishing it I’m thinking what am I going to do with this time I know I’m going to do a podcast. What about I don’t know doesn’t matter who with’ done it. What’s it. What’s it gonna be called and um I literally yeah I just Boom Boom boom.

20:32.97
Craig
Ship it.

20:38.62
Danny
Literally from the moment. The old Nba finished eight weeks later we were live with 5 episodes in the bag. Ah a teaser trailer ah a regular trailer of web site a name a description artwork a t-shirt but um, um, um. And I kept going like one a week one a week one a week one a week and I was fine. I was really enjoying a lot of energy during the kind of lockdown ah period and I even started a new job and that gave me a lot of energy but I was going in and out of the office I was now recording in the evenings I was pretty tired. Some of them went a bit flat. In fact, they were so flat. We said you know what? let’s just rerecord this tomorrow and we we did twice actually rerecord episodes because we both said that was a bit flat and um I kept making this joke which is because people like yeah how long you can do this I’m like well at any time I can just go that series one.

21:32.50
Craig
Um, yeah, 2 right.

21:33.97
Danny
See you for season 2 and I got to and I took the break over Christmas I’d already pre-planned three week gap of Christmas and the energy never came back right? Just. Just did not come back and the idea was to start recording and get some more get a backlog and in the end I went and renamed them all season 1 episode 1 season 2 1 episode 2 um and I just thought right? What I need to do now is I need to completely. The original plan was get 4 or 5 in the bag and then record every one or two weeks but basically I can keep up a cadence but there’s this buffer in the middle and that buffer got taken out by people calling in sick with covered and all of a sudden I was hand to mouth like one day I used to launch on a Tuesday morning and there was one point Friday night I’m calling up Freddy Quick episode 15 I think and I’m Freddy ah please adjust need half an hour of your time this weekend because I am out completely dry and I didn’t want to break my momentum I think.

22:34.90
Craig
And tear.

22:40.63
Danny
Building up the momentum is so so so important isn’t it and so I yeah, so effectively I haven’t started or thinking about season 2 I want to do a season two because I I mean I’m feeling the energy now talking to you and and I enjoy it. But I think what I’ll do is get the whole season in the bag and then just. Trickle it out in my own time. You know one a week once every two weeks but there’s is no I want to break the dependency between me and my time and my n g and the release schedule and just literally launch it in its own time. So I think I think that’s what I need to do but I’m tempted to think about maybe having a theme.

23:07.52
Craig
Um, yeah.

23:19.10
Danny
And then just do like 10 episodes but around a theme but again that that that goes into my planning off. Yeah, which is not my thing.

23:19.41
Craig
Be I’m thinking this reminds me of your planning thing. The idea of not having a publish to a schedule that sounds like your thing having a theme that runs to the whole season that doesn’t sound like your thing I think you know the answer name.

23:33.39
Danny
Yeah, yeah, the theme thing I think is just going to find 10 amazing 10 more amazing people to speak to and get just really excited about about their story and people are still approaching me regularly. You know I’ve got a story. Do you want to share my story. Um, and ah.

23:38.94
Craig
Yeah there.

23:52.85
Danny
Being in a business school I’ve got access to some of the greatest minds in the world who are doing some really amazing things and having an influence on the world. So yeah, I’m rambling on and the clock is that ticking on your ah on your format.

23:55.94
Craig
Right.

24:02.32
Craig
Um, that’s fine if people are still listening at 24 minutes you know like people can press stop it anytime? Um, but you you do make a good point and I think it is a good place for us to decide that we could stop for today. Danny as I said at the beginning it was a pleasure to get a chance to finally talk to you like interactively in real time. Um, and thanks so much for taking the time. Thank you.

24:21.81
Danny
Thank you Craig.