00:00.-10 podcomm Hello I’m craig constantonine hi Bruce um I always say I need more adjectives but it is a distinct pleasure to finally capture you um I think you were like on my day 1 I’m like oh I’m going to start a new podcast and I want to talk to Bruce so but.
00:02.1 Bruce Hello I’m Bruce devero.
00:18.1 podcomm It like took us a while but to your credit it’s because 1 time I was like hey how about this week you’re like well I’m I’m running was it a triathlon or an altim man or something.
00:26.8 Bruce It would yeah it was an ultra it was training for a 3 day kind of mixed ultra mountain race event. So.
00:35.4 podcomm Yeah, so you’re allowed to be hard to pin down but we were talking before as we do on all these and the word persistence came up. In fact I think that. When I emailed you and said oh thanks for grabbing a spot in my calendar… What do you want to talk about it was like you wrote right back and said persistence and I think I never know whether the show is for people who are making podcasts or people who are thinking about making podcasts. Um, so. I Think everybody who makes a podcast understands that persistence helps like if you are persistent that pays off but I’m just wondering are there. Do you think that that podcasting has been like I’m going to say like a positive feedback loop for your persistence or does it sort of like become the thing.
01:13.3 Bruce Oh.
01:27.3 podcomm Like persistence becomes the the negative thing that feeds back into podcasting like that’s what happens to me I’m so persistent. It’s a problem and I’m just wondering how persistence has changed for you in your life in general now that you’ve really tried like is that’s like the main tool like to be a successful podcast or you need persistence.
01:34.8 Bruce Ah.
01:42.0 Bruce Um, well you know you have the the p for podcasting and the P for persistence. So I think they go kind of hand in hand right? and.
01:45.9 podcomm And then you also need a microphone.
01:54.0 podcomm M.
01:59.1 Bruce After I ignored all the fame and the money offers you know from my my show and just people you know, climbing all over it and everything but no, not really, it’s you know persistence is key and and I think for myself it hasn’t been a negative.
02:01.4 podcomm Ah.
02:18.5 Bruce At All and I was thinking about that this morning when just before I came on because ah, you know it. It hasn’t been a negative because every time I finish an episode. You know you go through those moments where you’re like struggling going through the the episode and and trying to figure out what goes where. But the 1 thing I’ve noticed that every time I finish the episode I Step right back in to my little recording booth and think what’s next um, and it’s a really interesting feeling right? because by the by the time I get 1 out the door and get it and posted online I’m you know tired.
02:45.0 podcomm Um.
02:58.0 Bruce Um, it’s because it takes a good bit of energies. Plus you know doing my other work that I do um but when I step back in the recording booth I think okay, what’s the next 1 and so it sort of builds that cycle back up again. So That’s been been really I think a good indicator. That it’s been a really positive Experience. So.
03:17.9 podcomm Do you get? I’m not phishing for personal life details. But do you get pushback from you know people in your inner circles or were like shut up about the podcast or or do you really manage to you know, go into your proverbial podcasting lab and. And just do the thing all about yourself or do you wind up trying to talk to people about it then that goes bad.
03:43.8 Bruce Well I think probably I was in pod 6 with akimbo and that was at sort of the height of covid so that gave me an excuse to socially isolate from people and it worked quite well because it helped to really sort of build. My podcasting chops and get things up to steam. Um and you know since that and we still are in Covid obviously and there’s less socializing. So I tend to socialize more now through the podcast in my little booth that I that I’m in. So. Um, no and I don’t really ah I get encouragement. It’s interesting, right? because you wonder who’s your biggest audience do a lot of your friends and family listen to your show. Um and they do but it’s definitely not the majority so they know it’s something that Bruce does.
04:35.4 podcomm Right.
04:40.8 Bruce He goes into the closet and he interviews people. Yeah, ah well I remember when I did an interview with Jule and I’m in the closet.
04:42.1 podcomm Comes out all sweaty with his hair smashed down right? There’s like podcasting hair as the thing you get if you wear your headphones all day.
04:58.1 Bruce And I think it was a high but 1 hundred and 10 degrees fahrenheit outside and it was just so hot inside. Um I’m I’m chatting with Julie and I’m sure she’s looking at me I had ice bags on my feet and the sweat is just the sweat is just pouring down and you know.
05:10.1 podcomm Try anything right.
05:15.9 Bruce Felt the recording went pretty well. But when I listened to it I could hear myself a lot of the times gasping for air from in the mess like and Ju I’d like to. But yeah, she did a great job of editing it and it came up really well in the end. So.
05:34.0 podcomm It is it is interesting 1 of the things that I really love doing is we were we were mentioning before like our projects and you’re like you have a pretty big machine running here and I’m like yeah and the other 1 the the big project movers mindset I do as many of the recordings in person as I can that was obviously.
05:35.4 Bruce And.
05:53.0 podcomm It isn’t that I didn’t record any outside at all during covid but that really made it challenging. We’re like all right, let’s go record in a park and I’ll bring extra long cables. So we can be 10 feet apart. You know, um, which was an interesting chance to have like a you know when you put headphones on with the guests in person I give them headphones and a microphone and then I mix it so they hear um.
06:00.7 Bruce Yeah, okay.
06:12.9 podcomm But they hear a mix which isn’t what’s being recorded but they can hear me and them in their ears. So it’s like pillow talk. Um so it was a lot of fun to have these really intimate conversations with people ten twelve feet apart you know in a time when they haven’t been having a lot of social interaction but I’m often a tangent for movers mindset. 1 of the things I like about recording. Out in the field with the guests is I get to go like often to their houses or um I have 1 schedule for Sunday is going to be in a park or like in a university campus area. So I have no idea where we’re going like he’s going to try and find us a spot and then I have you know a giant backpack and all this. Stuff that I can log in folding chairs and you know just I just need 3 square meters you know and we can do our thing and that’s super energizing for me to get um you know, not necessarily into people’s houses but to get into a space that we’re physically sharing. Um, so I think that’s a real.
06:50.7 Bruce Yeah.
07:06.1 podcomm Thing that I draw energy from.
07:06.9 Bruce Well and I can see that for sure I mean you are like when I mentioned earlier about persistence you are persistence like you are very persistent and and the work that you do other like to me that’s absolutely amazing. Um. And it’s interesting too. You’re saying the in-person. That’s 1 of the things I’m really looking forward to this year also because of my I’ve only done 14 episodes. But I think only 2 of them had in-person interviews which was you know a great experience I think was the first and the second and then it really went to everything virtual and the virtuals.
07:37.3 podcomm Um.
07:44.7 Bruce Really fun and really a great connection with the individuals but I really look forward to also being able to connect in person with people definitely in the flesh so to speak.
07:54.1 podcomm Yeah, how this is how Craig’s brain works. How do you I was going to say walk the line like balance between how much of you know you is in the thing that you’re creating versus. Excuse me just had lunch versus how much of the guest. So like if you if you do an interview or a conversation with someone like how do you personally decide how much of Bruce should be present and seen and how much should Bruce be the.
08:15.8 Bruce That’s all right.
08:29.8 podcomm Documentarian or just holds the boom mic in don’t ignore me I’m just here holding the mic.
08:34.5 Bruce Ah, for myself I try to take as much of myself as possible out of it. Um, you know it’s an interview format. But I think what I’m making a shift 1 thing that I’ve noticed like when my direct. Interviews back and forth like I really enjoyed that with the guest and but I realize it’s not where I want to go with podcasting where I want to go with podcasting is more along the narrative storytelling audio production and just sort of work on that and have me sort of dip.
09:04.7 podcomm Um.
09:13.6 Bruce In and out of it a little bit but my goal is always sort of weaving my you know extracting myself out of it as much as I can that that’s sort of the key and and try to make it more of that story line narrative with rather than just a straight up interview for myself.
09:18.8 podcomm Um, yeah.
09:31.7 Bruce That that works best for me. So so.
09:31.7 podcomm I think I’m I’m of a like mind I um, try to think of a voice actor’s name I can there’s like a tv series with a famous british narrator and and it’s a lot of like our planet. You know when they shoot this. Amazing footage of everything. Whatever they’re and then I want to say like Atkins or something is his last name and and it’s just got this. You know like and here we see the emperor penguins you know and it’s and like I can’t even I can’t even get close to doing a justicee you either know what I’m talking about people that are listening or you don’t right.
09:57.9 Bruce Oh God I know.
10:07.4 Bruce Oh I know I Totally know what you’re talking about. Yeah David outtenborough the David attenborough my coffee worked quicker than your coffee.
10:10.3 podcomm So So I Sometimes yes, yes attenborough Yes, Thank you. And sometimes I think like I look back at like I’ll listen to something that I did and I’ll go Oh there’s too much of me there or why did I What you know and and I sometimes I think I have this urge to try and create in audio those magnificent. Circumspect creations that are those visual epics with that person and I’m just like oh man talk about setting the bar high to try and you know and even if especially if I wasn’t realizing that was what I was doing if I’m if that’s like quietly calling to me that level of Creation. So I’m wondering. Are there.
10:45.6 Bruce And.
10:55.6 podcomm But people or podcasts or projects or shows or anything that you find yourself drawn to either for inspiration or or for like oh you’re going to do what? Okay, the gloves are coming off if you’re doing that then I’m going to try and do you know like they they pull you higher any any people come to mind ah in that.
11:13.5 Bruce Oh excuse me right? off the bat. It’s the how sound Podcast h o w sound podcast with rob rosenthal I love that podcast.
11:13.5 podcomm Area.
11:17.6 podcomm Um, yes.
11:28.4 Bruce Because he just they goes off in so many different areas and audio production I mean the npr background. Yeah, and just every show is so interesting like just so so interesting. Um, another 1 that I really like that I just sort of linked into was they it’s more not so much a podcast but it’s.
11:47.9 podcomm Um I don’t think I’ve heard of that 1
11:48.4 Bruce Audio playground have you heard of it where they yeah audio playground. So what they do is they give you a prompt that you get emailed a prompt and then you record it and send it in so I think the last prompt was You’re going back back to the future kind of thing and meeting your former self and what do you say to them right? and they’re they’re always little short things like they’re anywhere from you know, a minute to two minutes and all different sort of.
12:13.5 podcomm Um.
12:24.2 Bruce Audio skill tasks that you can work on for audio production which is really really quite great. But you know how sound is is definitely 1 of my my favorite and transomino transome dot org right? So it’s just so rich with information and and audio production and yeah.
12:43.6 podcomm And the question I’m thinking is like if you had a blank check that actually wouldn’t bounce. You know what would you build or create with your podcast and and what I was thinking was what I don’t want to just say what are you trying to accomplish but you know as you do each episode. You know that you’re.
12:43.7 Bruce Amazing. Wow.
12:58.1 Bruce Or.
13:02.5 podcomm We each know that we’re building a jigsaw puzzle and maybe not even adjacent pieces I’m just randomly making jigsaws and throwing them down and is it. You know dalmatians having a snowball battle or is it. You know a star wars epic like you have no idea when you’re 3 four episodes in but I’m wondering if you’re starting to.
13:15.7 Bruce Ah.
13:18.9 podcomm To figure out like oh I would love to to finish or to create some big some bigger thing um with your podcast or maybe it’s the podcast is a part of some other mediums like where would you go if you know if resources weren’t an issue.
13:25.7 Bruce Ah.
13:37.5 Bruce Well I I don’t think I’d go into into video or film production along with it that type of podcast I Really like the straight up audio and the reason why I say that is I work in aging care and. In aging care. A lot of people have film video photos and photos say of family and stuff but very few have audio of their loved ones or you know spouses and.
14:01.7 podcomm Ah.
14:10.2 Bruce Just find the audio production is just so rich and I think in this day and age when we’re so bombarded with visual images and so many different tick tock youtube so many different ways to see things all over the place that I think people really still just enjoy the audio experience and so that’s for myself where I’d like to stay within that. And build a production I would see if if I had a blank check I think it would be looking at slowly building a team a team of creatives for for writing for assisting with you know production. But I would still I don’t envision some you know. Massive kind of podcast production audio studio because it’s just I just I like the simplicity of it. Um, you know the microphone the small space I’m kind of a minimalist in my life I live in a small my wife and I and 2 cats live in a very small apartment that we rent. We don’t have a lot of stuff. Tend to sit on the floor. You know we don’t have a lot of furniture I haven’t owned a tv in 30 years so that’s sort of I keep it on that and I just the experience I think of working with a team of creatives is key. You know. I have lots of thoughts on that and and I think a lot of the times for creating the podcast. It’s for myself. It’s kind of managing that collision of thoughts that I have you know right? It’s like I just.
15:37.7 podcomm It’s a great word coalition I was thinking? Yeah I have a train wreck. Yes.
15:43.1 Bruce Yeah, well you know sometimes it’s like a freeway pile up right? and it’s just like you know thoughts are just smashing into 1 another and piling up and I’m thinking like I can never get out of this mess and then other times it feels like a smooth country road. You know where you just kind of cruise along the idea is nice and easy and for me it to persist and persistence is trying to minimize those pile-ups like trying to stop all that influence coming in and and just trying to to simplify everything that I do and trying to figure out. When somebody’s listening to 1 of my podcasts. What are they experiencing right? Is it like are they confused are they able to sit back and kind of relax and am I able to create and I think this is the goal for myself am i. Able to create ah a sound environment for my listeners that somebody will spend 50 to sixty minutes in and that’s a lot in this day and age as we know right? like to get somebody to listen to if for 50 to sixty minutes like I’m always amazed when somebody.
16:47.1 podcomm Right.
16:57.1 Bruce Leaves a comment or says man I listen to that podcast that was great and I’m thinking wow you listen you sat down for fifty three minutes well no actually I was doing the laundry but but you know but still they you know they they? Yeah yeah.
16:59.3 podcomm Yes.
17:07.1 podcomm Yeah, still, that’s the because time is a gift right? if somebody gives you their time.
17:16.3 Bruce And you know you’re looking at for myself. Also it’s like say I’m about to start my next interview project and what I want to do with the person. So it’s It’s like it’s a bit of a maze like I see it as you know like bits and pieces and trying to figure out my way. Through it and what’s the connecting thread and it’s always exciting for me when I can find the connecting thread like how am I going to thread this story together like my last episode I had a lot of really interesting. The guest was fantastic and his life experiences were fantastic. But I I really didn’t know how to thread it together.
17:39.6 podcomm Um.
17:55.5 Bruce Um, so I went from this maze I Found the thread and you know for a really bad cliche to go from a maze to create something amazing. Um is hopefully where I can get to with with the project. So.
18:01.7 podcomm Oh.
18:09.6 podcomm I’ve loved your description of like the collsion of thoughts I totally have the same. We’ll call that a problem. Um some people would say oh it’s a gift. You can have a million infinite a number of ideas like no, it’s also a problem with great power comes great mental illness and what I’m wondering is.
18:23.1 Bruce Ah.
18:25.8 podcomm Are there things that you can do or that you go to like when you find yourself you know in? ah oh here we go like this is I’m having 1 of these mornings where I’m in that space are the things that you do or or things that you don’t do or like how do how do you wrangle that.
18:39.9 Bruce I I step away you know I just step away from it I come out of this little cozy Ten square foot booth or move away from the you know the computer fortunate where I live I walk out my back door and I’m you know we’re basically in like a provincial park. Or I can go to the other side and we’re basically on the beach. So you know nature and the outdoors is how I sort of decompress I get away from it. You know you have to especially audio work. You know when I used to do film editing and such I can so. Just scream through film footage and pick things out on a blur right? Like oh that’s that image I want right and piece all things together so you have that visual reference I find now that I’m really trying to work on training my audio brain. Like trying to remember something that I listened and to in the interview like 35 minutes ago and and trying to think okay where is that section and how do ah can I pull that section out to move it in to the here I need it here right? and you know being able to see the sound waves obviously helps. And now figuring out I just in Hindenburg about queue markers and such that makes a big difference. Ah so that’s that’s really helped um and just sort of that mental kind of puzzle because it takes a lot of work as you know, right? like you’re trying to.
20:10.5 podcomm Rain.
20:14.2 Bruce You’re building this thing kind of in space and I think you come from a software background right? where it’s like you’re you’re building that in your brain before you know as you’re kind of coding it stuff too. So for me, it’s the the same idea and.
20:15.9 podcomm Right? Yes, yes.
20:31.0 Bruce And I always find it’s interesting I always find that my podcast end up being in the fifty to sixty minute range you know the majority of them and I think that’s where they’re where they’re going to land for me. So it’s a fair chunk to be bouncing around in your head so you do need to take that break from it right.
20:44.9 podcomm Yeah, well speaking of time as much as I hate to say it I think that’s a great place to stop for today. It doesn’t have to be our only recorded conversation. But I think you’re I totally agree with you about the you know be outside grounding in nature. Um, there is something particularly exhausting about wrangling audio in your head. So but all right? um Bruce thank you so much for taking the time and making a space to have a chat with me today.
21:08.8 Bruce M.
21:18.9 Bruce Craig. It’s been great. Fantastic! Thanks man.