Transcript for "Nuance - with Emeric McCleary"

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00:00.00
podcomm
Hello I’m Craig Constantine

00:01.58
Emeric
And I am emmarick mcclary the host and creator of the my spouse I Two podcast.

00:08.29
podcomm
Um, terrific emric. It is a pleasure I say this all the time I need more adjectives. Um, this whole thing is a street race car design to give me an excuse to have fun conversations with people and. We have a little precall and we’re talking about what do we talk about about I think today we’re going to talk about finding Nemo no, we’re going to talk about finding nuance and I have no clue where we’re going and and I always joke that the show ends when the airbag deploys and you get a split second before you hit the dashboard. So off, we go when I said to you.

00:30.74
Emeric
Excellent.

00:41.22
podcomm
Let’s talk about something related to the podcasting What what made you think of the word nuance.

00:43.22
Emeric
Well so talk about what does nuance mean it’s one of those words where I’m sure I heard it when I was a lot younger but I never paid attention to what it really meant and I was too embarrass to look it up and well nuance really means the the subtleties minor distinctions like a. Personality or or a character so that has to do with finding that in in conversation and so that’s when I was talking about finding nuanced course like finding Nemo who has big play on words finding nuance I thought that’s something I would love to talk about because. That’s what I attempt to do on my show. Okay, so and.

01:23.40
podcomm
Um, so but um, because it but who’s there who’s driving here, not me, Um, you told you it’s just an excuse for having conversations. Um, so you do your format a little differently and I’m.

01:28.95
Emeric
Um, this is your show.

01:39.55
podcomm
Guessing That’s partly to throw people off a little bit like so so tell me how your show starts I mean I know but people don’t.

01:44.76
Emeric
Yes, so yeah, definitely so my show um the target audience of my show are widowed people. Okay, so my show gives people hope so they can heal find love again and give grief the middle finger so that gives you an idea that.

02:01.97
podcomm
Gets a little irreverent right? yeah.

02:03.20
Emeric
It’s irreverent and it’s r rated and and so you know you’re going to hear f bombs and raw stuff real things that happen in a widowed person’s life or leading up to it. So um. The show itself is a long format. Not how it’s published. But how it’s recorded so we’re recording for 3 to 4 hours and the reason we do that is because that’s when the gems come out. It’s like it’s like you’re standing waist deep panning for gold and you’re not going to find something in 5 minutes if you do you’re lucky but otherwise it may be 30 minutes 40 minutes an hour in and something comes up. It’s like.

02:33.14
podcomm
Um.

02:37.36
Emeric
It’s like somebody handing you an origami sculpture and there’s a lot of folds in it and you might ask a question and someone gives you an answer. So what? But now you need to know more. So the hand you the origami sculpture need to unfold it and unfold it and unfold it and unfold it and unfold it. So.

02:51.90
podcomm
Um.

02:54.90
Emeric
That happens over the course of 3 to 4 hours and and the way to do that is my job is to just say simple things like how so um, how might you do that and and that happens after I have what I call my guest co-host. I always have guest cohosts I say guest cohost because that gives them authority to tell me to foff maybe some some comfort to to argue with me and so but what I let them do is is tell their story and once ah once upon a time format because everybody understands that from from kids everybody knows that you know once upon a time. Things were like this and then for example, maybe there’s the a shitty diagnosis oops I cussed I cussed on your show. Oops so well. Ah, ah, ah, a port a poor diagnosis or you know if somebody drops dead and there’s dark humor somebody dark then yeah and then what happens you know.

03:33.68
podcomm
Um.

03:41.48
podcomm
Don’t do that. Oh shocking. All.

03:51.22
Emeric
And you go on and on and on and on and while they’re while they’re saying these things I might stop them and say well tell me more about X Whatever that was or tell me more about why you are sleeping in the middle of your bed now and I may say what do you mean.

03:58.30
podcomm
Um.

04:09.98
Emeric
or or again how so that that how so that those 2 words I learned that from Joe Rogan now it’s funny I hear people say oh Joe Rogan but you know what his gets better and better at asking questions and letting his letting his ah guests talk. And so so the nuance comes out when someone starts describing things and you let them run with it. But you got to give up control to let them run with it because what I’m attempting to do is I want to find out the unknowns but the great part is the unknown unknowns. It’s like oh this person’s doing some stuff where so a listener is listening thinking? oh.

04:38.80
podcomm
Moans.

04:44.61
Emeric
I Guess I’m not that freaky of a person because they’re doing the same weird stuff too. Yeah, so that’s that’s the beauty of finding nuance is is all of that but it it also trains you to be a better listener and it I.

04:45.67
podcomm
Same thing.

05:04.18
Emeric
Think it helps at least helps me because I’m curious I’m just infinitely curious and so if you’re infinitely curious. You’re probably going to ask questions or or let people talk or to give you more information or again looking for that Gold nugget. But if you’re not curious. So I mean how can you find nuance if if you just want to ask questions and.

05:16.67
podcomm
Um.

05:22.72
podcomm
Yeah, you wind up steamrolling over over the whole thing somebody said and I don’t remember who that the cure for boredom is curiosity and the cure for curiosity is oh wait. No, there’s no cure for that. Sorry you’re just going to be stuck with that because it.

05:23.26
Emeric
Find out the unknown to move on.

05:33.90
Emeric
Are.

05:42.17
podcomm
It winds up. Um, and I I think I have that problem and so I call Curiosity a problem like if you’ve really got the curiosity book. It’s a problem and just totally eat your face. It’ll consume all your free time and eat your whole project up. Do you do you? Um I’m going to guess that you find that you can really exhaust a guest.

05:50.21
Emeric
I agree.

06:01.30
Emeric
No.

06:02.17
podcomm
Because I know happens I’m like dang that person looks really tired all right. It’s been 3 hours of sitting here with microphones and headphones and do you find that you can tell up so my question is I’m assuming that you can pretty much exhaust somebody like that if you’re not careful. Do you find that there are certain kinds of people that are more likely to be exhausted. Are are the guests who are inherently curious are they better at running the marathon like I’m wondering if there’s something that are people who are curious also more used to being in like sitting in the deep space sitting in the nuance for longer periods I’m I’m like wondering. Because curiosity feels kind of frenetic and I’m wondering if that also plays out as them being patient.

06:38.82
Emeric
Yes, so with my guests I don’t know upfront if they’re curious. So I’m going to do some vetting before I have them on the show I’m going to get on a phone call first and I want to listen to their voice just about everybody has a.

06:54.70
podcomm
It Anyone told get something like and talk me right? You like not thanks by. Ah.

06:54.78
Emeric
Ah, a good and a voice. Okay, just about once in a while there are voices out to where you think that that kind of voice I Yeah this no thanks right? So I’ll get somebody on the phone and I’ll listen to them and and I want to know if they’re going to be able to take the f word can they can they cuss are they going to be offended.

07:08.11
podcomm
Right.

07:12.97
Emeric
That ow word is so stupid to me. Are they gonna be offended. Ah can they banter with me so and and so it’s almost like I’ll say okay, we’re gonna talk for fifteen twenty minutes on the phone for some chit chat and we schedule that and it turns into 45 minutes and that in and of itself could be ah, a show. It’s a great indicator. So.

07:26.77
podcomm
And that’s a good indicator. Yeah.

07:31.82
Emeric
So I’ve preveted them and then I get them on a Zoom call where I see their face I want to see them so now they’re getting a little more comfortable with me because I see me now so you know there’s a little there’s frequency now. It’s the second contact and of course I need to make sure that their audio works because most most people are kind of I should say audio idiots.

07:47.90
podcomm
Um, yeah, they’re not but I was going to say they’re not used to the crazy technical level that us podcasters are used to but okay if you want to say audio indians.

07:51.69
Emeric
Really.

07:58.40
Emeric
I Just thought I’d tear the bandage up so to to attempt to answer your question I know I’m going around the barn a lot is I’m I’m vetting in essence by by talking to them I had somebody who wanted to be on the show. Some guy wanted to be on the show. Ah, ah, again, a widower.

08:04.45
podcomm
Can go wherever you want.

08:17.93
Emeric
And I was chit chatting with him and and he kind of didn’t fit the profile of the age. So Generally the guests on the show. My guest cohosts. They lost their spouse or their partner anywhere from late Twenty s to when they were in the in their fifty s Okay, so it’s not the eighty year old or the ninety year old. And this person was late sixty s but that there was nothing there to the conversation I was trying to pull things out and it was just flat and I thought and I’m not going have him on the show. It’s kind of like for me, it’s okay, if there’s going to be a cocktail party on Planet Amarick Who Do you want to invite.

08:54.15
podcomm
Right here.

08:56.84
Emeric
Would you invite that guy and he wouldn’t add to the show I would have to be doing all the talking and that that’s that’s not it. So that’s part of the vetting process. But I don’t I don’t have a format for my vetting process I do have a fight.

09:07.99
podcomm
Yeah, just just trying to spend time with them I think that’s that that’s a deep mindful way to do it I think.

09:12.57
Emeric
To spend to spend time with them. That’s really it I do it with all I’ve had 3 4 authors on the show I do the same thing with the authors. Of course I tell them to send me your book first I do a little bit of adding there if I want to read the book send me your book first and I will read it I actually read it I underline it write in the margins.

09:30.32
podcomm
Oh amen I’ve interview. Yep yeah.

09:32.73
Emeric
Rabbit hole stuff I write in the margins I look at it and I think about it and then then if I decide that this something I’d recommend to listeners then I let them know love the book. Love it. Love the book. It’s very helpful I believe the many and I want to have you on the show.

09:44.76
podcomm
Man.

09:52.34
Emeric
Now we need to do Ah, let’s do a test a sound test and and then let’s schedule something you know X in in the future because now I need to go back through all my notes and then I start making notes of my notes but but that’s that’s vetting authors because you know an author may not sound good.

09:53.56
podcomm
M.

10:02.54
podcomm
Um.

10:11.26
Emeric
I mean I had well all the authors have been ah, been fun to have on the show. Um.

10:14.31
podcomm
Yeah people or people right? everybody is different. They sounds different looks different acts different some people like I maybe people show up and I I had ah a place that I rented for a week and I was having people come like I was in England people coming to me.

10:28.84
Emeric
No no.

10:31.22
podcomm
And on the first day I did the first interview after like I set up all my crap on the table because I’m interviewing in person so I have an extra body in the room there. 3 of us all this stuff set up and the second guests showed up and like froze they like came in the room and they were like because I had I thought I was being inviting I had a chair pulled out with us cushion a glass of water and.

10:34.27
Emeric
Um, yeah, yes, yes, yes.

10:47.38
Emeric
Um, ah sure oh you have wires wires and ah and a car battery.

10:50.16
podcomm
And and to them it was like your execution chair is right over and they were like they like and they like locked up me well there’s head it’s headphones and yeah, yeah, so then I I was like. For the next whatever many episodes I was doing this little pre-dance where I would kind of half take things apart I would like lay their microphone I’d take it out of the stand and I don’t but unplug some things there but some 1 thing I had to plug together and it was like this holds the whole like bullshit show but it it changed changed the environment for them and it it made the space. It. It made it.

11:13.40
Emeric
Oh.

11:23.28
podcomm
Before that I had done a lot of podcasts before that I hadn’t really paid attention to the imbalance of power that as the host I had and and like that when I So like oh yes, you know I’m completely comfortable here because I’ve knocked the mic over and I’ve spilled my drink on myself like I’ve done all that but to them there.

11:30.58
Emeric
Um, yes.

11:43.23
podcomm
Okay, Craig so you you mentioned um, learning that the whole thing that you but usually where it’s Craig I’m worried about the airbag going off I mentioned before I think the airbag is going to become a running joke for the show. But you mentioned before.

11:50.79
Emeric
I know I need to know beforehand so I could take my glasses off because I don’t want to smash the rest of my face up.

12:01.28
podcomm
That and I think you said your podcast has become a ah way for you to practice listening and I was nodding vigorously but nobody heard that and and what I’m thinking here was the story that I just told about the guest who freaked out that was kind of when I went Oh not only am I learning to listen.

12:11.72
Emeric
Ah.

12:18.50
Emeric
Yes, yes, yes.

12:18.40
podcomm
But I knew when that was that’s when I had my headphones on them when the other person’s talking. But I’m also learning to empathize and I’m also learning to practice compassion and that to me is like boy did everybody knows me is like Craig you really need to take that course much much sooner so that I get a lot out of it.

12:31.87
Emeric
Um, so so so so it it sounds like you weren’t very compassionate or empathetic before.

12:43.29
podcomm
Um, probably not I would agree with you. Yes I would say that I was not super compassionate I think the mistake that well that the mistake but the way that I the thing that I was doing wrong was I would understand. Like I would see somebody upset like it wasn’t like I’m missing completely and not noticing. It wasn’t that I wasn’t empathic. It was that I went all right? Well the best thing for me to do would me to not meddle with your crap. So I would ignore it or I would or I would keep keep my response or my compassion to myself.

13:06.60
Emeric
Yes, yes. Um, yes.

13:18.71
podcomm
Um, whether or not that’s actually the cat that was really what was going on but that’s the way I perceive it as being calibrated but now I’m much more like if something happens you know, good. Bad. Whatever I’m much more comfortable going. Oh we’re going over here. Okay, not Like. Oh I I don’t want to go there. That’s uncomfortable now I’m just like oh okay, let’s go over there I mean oh that’s uncomfortable. Wait. That’s Interesting. Why is that uncomfortable. Let’s go over there So I Just think it. It made me ah more comfortable, um, acting out or manifesting you know the mirroring.

13:34.25
Emeric
You have.

13:49.60
Emeric
Yes.

13:52.67
podcomm
Man manifesting going along on the journey in good with good intentions. Oh god yeah ah ah no I’ve I’ve done like 200 of these.

13:55.69
Emeric
But but you had to practice that in other words, someone who might be thinking someone who might be thinking gosh you know I Just can’t do that with people that’s not me usually when someone says that’s not me. It’s usually some fear That’s usually some fear thing some shame B s thing. So.

14:10.92
podcomm
Should see in the first five they’re like oh my God Um, yeah yeah.

14:13.72
Emeric
So yeah, it takes you so you you practice it I mean I I have to practice that to 1 of my guest cohosts when he came on. We didn’t do a sound check because he was Goingnna do it came to my house and by the way if they’re gonna be at my house or or where we go to their place. We’re gonna have a meal either i’m. I’m having food brought in or I’m going to cook or they’re going to cook and there might be yeah there’s going to be alcohol involved probably there hasn’t been anything else. They’re having a glass of wine because they’re ah we’re going to get into some real heavy topic stuff. Real heavy heavy things and.

14:32.88
podcomm
Amen Yep gonna cook or or we’re going for a walk to the coffee shop. Yes, oh I learned to avoid that one then I’m going to the gun.

14:47.36
podcomm
Ah.

14:51.93
Emeric
Lots of times a lot of the nuance comes out after we stop recording and we start talking about dating and there’s sex talk and all this other stuff and I just let them go in terms of what they’re saying and it’s ah it’s a lot more fun because it’s very risky and one of the evil sides of mine is throwing something out that.

15:01.85
podcomm
Yeah.

15:11.45
Emeric
Makes people squirm I mean some some question and the weird part is you mentioned Authority because it’s your show and that’s one one of the reasons I say your guest cohost because I want to give them some authority I don’t want them to think they have no authority but you’d be surprised how many of them aren’t asking me something.

15:27.75
podcomm
Oh my god people do not I mean like this particular show is all podcasters. So maybe half of the time people ask me questions and I love it. But when you’re talking to like the regular guests. They do not want to I mean unless they have a canned spiel I had 1 guest like.

15:43.63
Emeric
Um, yes, yes.

15:45.87
podcomm
Really a single one show up with a nobook computer and spreadsheets and I was like this is going to take a little longer than I’m thinking this is going to take a little longer than usual for me to get to the good stuff. Um, but unless they show up like that they they want to be podcasted set of thing they want to have the podcast experience done to them.

16:02.50
Emeric
Um, ah.

16:05.14
podcomm
And they might not ah maybe it’s because they’ve never imagined what might really go on behind the scenes. You know if you’ve heard if one has heard a podcast. You don’t really know what really happened? Um, so I love when people get to a point and it happens maybe half of the time on this show. They get the point where they’re like oh their curiosity comes out and then.

16:08.79
Emeric
Yes, yes, right.

16:24.37
Emeric
Um, right.

16:24.89
podcomm
It actually comes out. You know they’re like well where do you want to? and then I’m like oh yes, let’s go that way. So I don’t know. Did you ask me something I don’t think so but.

16:29.11
Emeric
Yeah I don’t recall maybe I did see these are the conversations these are conversations I I love to have they’re just they’re wide ranging and but they’re but they’re real versus.

16:38.81
podcomm
Um, yeah.

16:43.67
Emeric
Somebody asking you know 3 questions I get it if somebody wants to listen to a show where it’s information I want to learn 3 things and so there’s 3 questions to ask I completely get that it’s just my share is not that way and my conversations with my friends aren’t that way either. They just go all over the place. We might talk about they know.

16:55.30
podcomm
Right.

17:01.30
Emeric
A leaf hey I saw this yellow leaf is really a trip. There’s its vein stuff on out I’m going to take a picture of it show you How cool it’s just off the wall stuff. That’s it um finding Nuance I’ve got a couple of resources I would share if you would like me to or if not no kind. So.

17:04.78
podcomm
Right? Yeah, you’re sharing experiences right.

17:14.63
podcomm
No, absolutely go. Go go.

17:20.81
Emeric
There’s a book I bought this is I don’t know a couple years ago and if you buy this book and you apply just a couple things from it. You will become a better listener. You will be ah, a better communicator with your family kids spouse parents. Whoever’s alive. I was gonna say whoever is dead now got I can’t help you there but friends employers your lover who whoever and it’s called never split the difference I’ve mentioned this before probably on. Um on some our webinars. We’ve been on never split the difference from ah Chris Foss he is a former Fbi negotiator.

17:42.92
podcomm
Ah.

17:49.17
podcomm
Um.

17:59.23
Emeric
And this really teaches you how to find the unknown unknowns and for less than twenty bucks you could possibly enhance your life.

18:03.40
podcomm
Unknown.

18:10.20
podcomm
Yes, I have not read the book but my brain is going. They have a blog. Whatever whatever the he has a company and he has a lot of blog posts and I can just see like the blog posts developed into and like I can just see like the multi-year thought process that went in behind that.

18:16.81
Emeric
Um, yes, yes.

18:27.11
Emeric
Yes.

18:29.60
podcomm
And I’ve read all the blog posts and every time that book comes up I’m like oh I wish I had more hours to read. There’s just out of sight. There are books. Ah, yeah.

18:37.20
Emeric
Ah, same same here. Yeah, there’s so usually like a running 5 or 6 books running where they’re not. They’re not complete I mean I have I look over at my nights stand I thought I need some I need some leisure reading some relaxed reading. So I have ah Hemingway on hunting. There’s a bunch of essays pulled out of his books.

18:55.50
podcomm
Whoa I got all this Huxley over here. Have you read tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow by Huxley that’s a really good collection of essays. Thanks together. Sorry never split the difference.

18:56.52
Emeric
Ah, so and now you start reading that.

19:01.15
Emeric
No I have not but perhaps perhaps so never split the difference. Ah I like listening to Stephen Dubner he’s the host of freakonomics he was one of the co-authors of that of that book from years back and you listen to that how he asked the questions.

19:18.21
podcomm
Just.

19:20.39
Emeric
And how he poses things and um course I mentioned Joe Rogan but in terms when he’ll say how so but he’ll just tell you look I’m stupid I’m a dumb guy I don’t understand this and so and then guess what’s happening next then his guest is explaining everything well well yeah because.

19:29.26
podcomm
Use Smaller words.

19:39.10
podcomm
Um.

19:39.98
Emeric
He wants to know. Maybe he already knows and he just asked the question that way. So but all that gets you to to Nuance and nuances what part of that is the kind of the where you find the beauty in life I Think so.

19:52.00
podcomm
Yeah I would agree I think that’s a perfect place to call it airbag. It’s a terrible terrible metaphor I need a better way to end this show. Um emrick it.

19:59.60
Emeric
So Airbe’s coming in. Well I appreciate.

20:06.11
podcomm
Ah, pleasure. Um I’m delighted that we got chance to done a chat I’m delighted that we’ve managed to work our tech part of the fun with this is that we can all commiserate about technology. Um.

20:11.26
Emeric
Um, yes yes I appreciate it I’m honored I’m honored you had me on here. Thank you Craig.

20:19.46
podcomm
Oh you’re too kind. Everybody is something like it’s easy. It’s press or then you press stop I Think it’s easy, but’s but it’s purely my pleasure emricck um have a great rest of your day.

20:32.23
Emeric
Likewise peace.