Transcript for "Expectations - with Jam Mayer"

(Interactive content will replace this message when viewed in the Forum.)

00:00.00
Craig
Hello I’m Craig Constantine welcome this is the podcaster community show short conversations that are not just about podcasting because as I always say I like to take the scenic route. My guest today is Jam Mayer. Welcome Jam. Thank you for connecting from tomorrow. You’re on the other side of the globe from me.

00:19.80
Jam
Ah, Kyora that’s all I’m going to say Craig and thank you again for the opportunity to have me today. Um, if you anyone’s curious listening to this episode I am in Auckland New Zealand and yes it is tomorrow midday

00:38.18
Craig
Midday I Love it. Um I Just often say it’s a miracle this works it all halfway around the world literally around the other side of the magical ball that we all call home. Um, so people might have to bear with us because there’s a bit of a delay. Well imagine that. So grumpmy because there’s a None -second delay. So sometimes you and I are a little like I tell a joke and I’m like I no know she’s going to laugh and it comes back. Um, and we’re running with the video off to try and keep this a little more stable. But anyway, um, we were discussing before I hit the big red button we were talking about all sorts of things we were talking about. Technology and talking about different kinds of technology mediums like communicating in person training is your wheelhouse talking about communicating via audio only with video and I’m wondering if you can remember. When you first realize because you said to me before we started recording when you None realized that you enjoyed doing in-person training the most as opposed to like live radio or podcasting or record a video like do you recall when you realized that.

01:45.48
Jam
Um, I really don’t um I mean I am comfortable with digital training meeting with Zoom and all that it’s just I guess I feel the energy more when I have none um, I think my biggest audience or with public speaking in conferences I just feel the energy I can connect more versus obviously seeing let’s say 50 squares on the screen. Yeah yeah, so I do prefer that. So yeah I is is.

02:12.55
Craig
Um, ah.

02:18.22
Craig
Um, I’ve often wondered you know you you talk about I Always joke make the joke about the Hollywood squares like but that’s a dated joke. But when you’re in Hollywood squares mode in a video call and you have all those little pieces. Um, sometimes I wonder if a part of what is.

02:20.66
Jam
Just more energetic I guess or feel energy.

02:37.51
Craig
I don’t want to say annoying but part of what’s difficult about that is I think that people hold themselves to a higher bar when they’re in the room with you. You know, like 50 people sitting in a room they are going to usually at least feign paying attention. But there’s something about being in the Zoom calls. People just forget that the other person can see them I don’t know if you have that same read about calls or if you’re if you’re have a different take on that but sometimes I feel like yeah, you need to turn your video off if you’re not even going to try and don’t the you know the the attendees I don’t know if you have any thoughts on you know since you’ve. Going to say face but that sounds negative since you faced large groups in person and in Zoom grids if your thoughts about how the attendees show up or how they think about their appearance.

03:16.78
Jam
Yeah.

03:22.24
Jam
Well I’ll I’ll answer that question based on. Um I don’t want to say it but I’m going to say it anyway and in terms of generation and this is yeah um, this is based on hard data there you go. That’s my ah just to be safe.

03:32.52
Craig
Don’t forget her recording. That.

03:41.35
Jam
Um, no, but but seriously based on experience and again data the behaviors I’ve seen is quite interesting in each generation and I don’t want to go through. You know what generation you are at and so on but let’s start with the video call or Zoom. I’ve had safest how my partner’s daughter is about um she’s she’s like none right and when they have their classes online Zoom classes. What’s interesting is that yes a teacher who is in another obviously from a different generation.

04:06.20
Craig
Are.

04:18.59
Jam
Requires them to turn on the video for attendance purposes or whatever or to check if they’re listening but see the problem there is there is yeah exactly are you here is that your mom attending your class. But anyway long story short. It’s.

04:24.58
Craig
They’re in the room right. East.

04:33.10
Jam
It’s really there’s a little bit of a disconnect because there’s that expectation from a generation that says you have to show yourself on video but the digital natives they’re so used to it that they don’t even have to look at the video because they know they don’t care. They’re so comfortable with the medium that. Yes, they’re listening. It’s just that you can’t force these children to go I am going to look at the video unless of course they’re an influencer or they’re recording a Tiktok video and so on that’s another. Yeah yeah, so anyway, um, yeah, um, for for the older older generation for example, then obviously it’s really.

05:01.22
Craig
Ah.

05:10.74
Jam
I have to put on makeup I have to make sure that I but video is on I have to make sure oh you’re so rude if your video is not on and there’s in the middle some say well I just want to do audio. It’s just a meeting or whatever and I’m just an attendee so it’s None people in here. So why do I have to turn on the video. So what’s interesting to me is the different behaviors and what I’ve seen in terms of pattern is it depends on how old you are or at least how how old you think because I always think I’m a millennial even though I’m not.

05:37.60
Craig
Review.

05:43.53
Craig
But yeah, that brings up a good point about um that that different people you know, age wise speaking different people may be used to relying on cues that are I’m going to say like off the primary point like. If we’re if we’re all learning Mathematics. It really shouldn’t Matter. We’ll all agree. We. We’d all agree. It doesn’t actually matter how old the students are or what race they are or what their religion is but for some reason older people myself I’m calling myself out tend to think. That people who appear to be engaged are probably more likely to be learning and and that kind of calls into question like the Hm Maybe that’s actually a mistake. Maybe what I should be doing is saying Well Why are you know the whole. Why are we even doing this as a live interactive thing. Why don’t I just record the lecture or send out the outline or send out the notes or whatever. Um, So I think it’s kind of a 2 wo-way opportunity for both. Um, maybe the older people who are disgruntled that people are not engaging the way they wish they would maybe that’s an opportunity for us to. Look at the medium and go wait. Why did we choose this medium. Why did I choose a video a video medium. Do. We really need video. Do We need 2 way video. Um, but then that circle in person is why do we think in person is so great.

07:00.49
Jam
Exactly no? Yeah, but I totally agree. Yeah, it’s it’s it’s really interesting and and I mean I’ve I’ve trained all my life and that’s my passion and whether it’s video or face to face and audio I mean to your point. It is really dependent on the person’s learning style I mean we we learn differently so choosing the medium of course you can’t really say hey jam you go for a video Craig you go for video or audio or whatever I mean not unless there’s a technology.

07:34.65
Craig
I Want mine print it right? right? Yeah, it’s not that binary. It’s not that clear cut. Yeah.

07:40.13
Jam
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But yeah anyway, yes, technology. Um, um, can I just say I excuse me the other thing that I’ve I’ve noticed is are you. Online Communities I think you are because you have your own online community. Um I have a question for you. Not mine? Yeah, um, no no I mean how are you are you really comfortable with the Forum kind of thing or um.

08:01.22
Craig
I think it would depend on I think will yeah, go ahead, give me your question give me a question.

08:14.19
Craig
It It depends on the platform. So I’m super comfortable in what I would call online spaces of pretty much any type. Um I find that I’m not I’m not going to knock up put dates out but in the beginning. Um.

08:15.74
Jam
Not that’s None question.

08:33.71
Craig
We were limited by what the platforms could even do and I got really comfortable in plain text I got really comfortable in um, ah asynchronous like synchronous but really slow like email or. Asynchronous, you know, but it still takes a couple seconds between what I type and what you type like relay chat and things like that. Um, so I’m really comfortable in those mediums but I’m also comfortable in spaces you know where there’s video or where there’s you know a Facebook group. Um, so. I think I didn’t really realize how much effort it takes in any of those spaces for me to actually engage. Um, and lately you know maybe like in the last five years I’ve been more intentional about which platforms I choose to engage in but not because of the of the medium but because of why I was there. So I’ve I’ve moved away from or I’ve chosen not to go into I’ve moved away from long ago like from Twitter for example, it’s just it isn’t wasn’t a space where I felt like I was going to create something and engage and get something out of it that corresponded to how much time I’d have to put in to be good at it or to be visible at it. Um, so I would say I’m comfortable in online spaces and it’s just a question of like yeah do I want to put in the effort to be in the space to show up in that space in like an honest, you know? Okay I’m here to contribute and I’m not here to be a consumer type thing if that answers your question I don’t know.

09:56.70
Jam
Yeah, yeah, it does and and there’s a reason for me to ask the question because there was um, another behavioral type of behavior that I’ve I’ve noticed is that not a lot and we’re both comfortable with forums and communities because i. Excuse me I am in Discord and as you said Facebook groups and etc. We’ve just recently finished sort of a Ux study internally. Um and what’s interesting with the result of that little mini study. Um, or group is that a big part of the group or a big junk. Well maybe most. Um anyway doesn’t matter what we found is that they’re not actually comfortable. They were expecting like a one static page. To tell us exactly where to go unlike us when we go to a forum like let’s say Reddit I don’t know if you’ve used Reddit For example when I log in yeah, it’s crazy. There. Um I think that’s busiest forum ever.

10:52.53
Craig
Um, yeah, yeah, right Reddit’s like a cocktail party on a good day right.

11:09.30
Jam
It’s just finding my tribe where is it okay hang on. Okay, there’s too many conversations going on. Um I think it’s great for for people who just like me who’s probably I’m I’m I’ve just self-diagnosed myself. It’s having Adhd or my partner just told me last night I think yeah.

11:09.73
Craig
The.

11:21.99
Craig
Um.

11:25.77
Jam
Have the symptom um not symptoms. But I think you’re autistic too Anyway, just a sidebar. Um, um, no it was it was it was I was smiling and stuff. It’s It’s interesting to me Anyway, that’s another story maybe for I know a recording Um, but any who.

11:29.59
Craig
Um, that’s to say how that conversation turn out. Yikes.

11:44.34
Jam
It’s It’s interesting that that that group has said well I got lost I don’t know where to go and you know. For fact, when you join a or a company a forum or a community for example, like your podcasting community. There is the homepage so to speak.

11:55.95
Craig
Right? Any space. Yeah.

12:02.75
Jam
Where all the feed comes in and they go well can we have a static homepage so we know where to go what it? Yeah anyway, just wanted to share that and to the audience and to you whoever is going to listen to this So it’s It’s just an interesting behavior.

12:07.66
Craig
Ah, right.

12:14.28
Craig
Um, well that brings up a good point about um, ah and like ah you you make a good point about so you’re talking about the podcaster community that this show is like the adjacent to. And yeah, there’s actually a way to do that in discourse. It’s a generic feature of discourse platforms. You can change what the homepage is when None logs in and arrives and I’m not I’m not pushing back about your question about can we have a static page but what doesn’t say is it points to some people are I’m going to say um. The type of people who bend their environment. So like I walk into any new platform and the first thing I do is pop open the preferences and go like well what are the knobs that are available here like do I have control over x over y over z and. Um, some people ah walk into any new space and they’re just like they they want to just sort of like look you know they they walk up on the pool deck and they kind of want to stand around looking like they’re swimmers but they’re not in the pool and then other people are just like oh well, you know I’m rearranging the deck chairs I’m rearranging everything and I think that mindset. Really makes it hard for people who have the mindset of not wanting to poke at the thing. Maybe they’re afraid they’re going to break it. Maybe they don’t know the time. Maybe they get confused but people who don’t want to lean into it that makes it really hard for people who run or build the communities because a lot of times the thing that you’re looking for is like. None clicks away. Um and that’s None thing that I found about the podcaster community. Um, we we like have a greeters group and we reach out to the new people directly and we will like usually the question I ask is was there anything you tried to do but couldn’t figure out and people will often be like oh my god I could not figure out how to do x and I’ll be like oh there’s a button for that. I’ve clicked it for you there now. It’s done so it’s that challenge of is you know the people listening is one the type of person who you know sort of like barges into the room like well where’s the water fountain in the bath. You know they just like make yourself at home or do you feel like you should be able to sort of slip into the side and. It’s really tricky to build a community space that kincaer to people who don’t have the urge to like click and poke it. That’s one distinction that I see a lot of and I’m not saying one is right and None is like None type of person is right and None type of person is wrong. It’s just a really challenging really challenging for community spaces. To cater to both of those kinds of people at the same time.

14:38.47
Jam
No totally agree and and that was that was really an interesting study and I just found out like yesterday the results and it’s just oh let me take note of that. Um, because as you said well again, it is user experience. So it’s it’s gold.

14:47.30
Craig
Oh.

14:53.53
Craig
Right.

14:56.69
Jam
Gold insight at least for me I mean anyway I just wanted to put it out there. Something thought provoking stuff that I just learned and hopefully you know your listeners would actually go. Yeah.

15:10.12
Craig
Well, it does speak to some of the challenges that podcasters would face. Um I don’t like I don’t get asked for podcasting advice a lot I mean compared to the average random human a lot but not in the grand scheme of things and None of the things that I always point out when I’m asked. Is to say it’s really hard by which I mean it’s basically impossible to get people who are listening to podcasts to change mediums and and this sort of begs the question of if a person listening to a podcast is like Craig I poke at stuff. So if I like the episode I flip open the episode notes in my podcast player. I push the link to go to your website I follow. There’s a url connected to every podcast episode I go there I’m on Google and I’m searching and other people may be the passive listener and and they’re just like if it isn’t in the audio. They’re not going to do it and I think that is there’s a similar. Problem there for podcasters who imagine I’m going to make a show. There’s going to be a lot of people listening and that’s going to somehow magically those people are going to turn into customers or blog readers or tiktok followers and I think it’s really. This is like in that vein of pointing out that some people are very proactive and some people either by their nature or by choice are very passive about how they interact with any medium.

16:35.35
Jam
And yep, exactly And of course it there’s just just just a lot more I mean there’s text, there’s audio. There’s video oh my goodness. Um, there’s just too much technology out there and and and that’s I guess something that I’ve always loved.

16:42.88
Craig
It’s rabbit holes everywhere. Yeah.

16:55.57
Jam
Experimenting on is how do we actually engage more effectively or at least best communicate our message. Whatever that may be in a medium where our tribe or audience is actually at and they’re going to Engage. Um. That is a big question.

17:14.42
Craig
It It makes me wonder are there things that you know I don’t know who’s listening to this show I know my mom doesn’t listen but I don’t know who’s listening to this show. But I’m I’m wondering. Are there things that that um maybe you’ve seen you know I’m thinking like.

17:22.40
Jam
I.

17:30.14
Craig
Ah, maybe things you’ve seen your customers do with and you’ve had suggestions for them or things you’ve seen just in you’ve been in a space. Maybe you’re watching someone else give a presentation and because you have presentation Skills. You’re seeing how things are going but I’m wondering if there are observations you have about how we as Podcasters can find our blind spots like. Maybe I’m making episodes and I’m not explaining like maybe there should be a static piece of introductory at the front and the the power users who poke the tools they’ll skip over it or maybe I should be always making sure that I Um, try to engage visual. Learners even though I’m only doing an audio format like I’m just wondering well as a presenter or a publisher or a creator we have to have blind spots. So How do we figure out which Mediums we’re particularly weak at and maybe how can we like avoid shooting ourselves in the foot does that make any sense.

18:27.11
Jam
Yep, um, I am a ah I Love experimenting So What I would if I had the time. Um and I would really love to do This is what what?? what? I’ve observed um is that creators like ourselves. For example, if you start off as a blogger so written form and then they so move into podcasting So Obviously they will have the audio version on the blog and it’s It’s basically having or giving the chance to the readers or listeners or whatsever hey. If you feel like reading something because you just don’t feel like listening to anything or you have there. You know there’s a reason you can’t listen to anything then here’s a link to read X right? Or if you’re a podcaster hey. With your notes or whatever it may be then you have a link to something else or the video. So At least if you have those little I don’t know windows I call them windows.

19:26.17
Craig
Cross connections maybe or.

19:32.64
Jam
Windows to the medium that they prefer then at least from there and me being a data analyst as Well. My geekiness I would look at it and see ah okay so my tribe is actually. In the audio side of things that I’ll create more in the audio and so on and so forth and I don’t know if that answers your question but that is the biggest pattern or behavior I’ve seen so far with creators like ourselves. Um the result of that I’m not sure I don’t have an answer. So.

20:01.80
Craig
Um, yeah I don’t I don’t know that it answers my question but I’d be surprised if you had hit that one. Um, what I’m what I’m thinking is it’s Interesting. It’s always interesting to hear other people’s perspectives on. Strange things I Grammatically form into questions but really aren’t clear cut questions in my mind I’m like yeah just take an idea and put a question mark on the end of it. Um, but I think your ideas give people something to think about for different mediums and different ways to put content out there I hate’t say it. But I’m watching our time take away.

20:31.61
Jam
Yep, a exactly.

20:34.89
Craig
Um I don’t think you have actually said the name of so if people would like to get in touch with you and learn more about you or your work. How can they reach out to you. What’s your preferred medium to reach you particularly.

20:46.78
Jam
Um, Linkedin perhaps is my favorite platform at the moment. So all they need to do is just Google me really just type in my name and um, my Linkedin profile cross fingers and toes will show up on page one.

20:58.74
Craig
Um, pops up and I did find it on page one. Yes I did that and it was there So I just did a test for you sweet all right jam. What.

21:05.38
Jam
Ah, fantastic. Okay, yeah I think that’s medium. Thank you, thank you? Craig.

21:14.64
Craig
Yeah I was going to say thanks for taking the time and have a great rest of your it’s evening for me a great rest of your afternoon. Thanks.

21:21.30
Jam
Thank you too have a good night and weekend.

1 Like