Transcript for "Collaboration - with Cassandra Ellis"

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00:00.00
Craig
Hello I’m Craig kontanine welcome this is the podcaster community show short conversations that are not just about podcasting because I like to take this scenic route. My guest today is Cassandra Ellis welcome Cassandra Cassandra how are you I have this fear as everybody knows of mispronouncing people’s names. That’s like my. You know people worry about public speaking I worry about adding extra r’s in people’s first names I’m sorry welcome Cassandra.

00:21.46
Cassandra
Um, a. Well thank you and you did say Cassandra it’s usually a question of like is it Cassandra or Cassandra and I’m like well I do have a preference and you got it so there you go.

00:35.56
Craig
Whoo I lucked out I hadn’t even thought about that. Thank you for opening up additional chasms of horror for me to mispronounce. People’s names. Yeah oh with great mental powers comes great mental illness. So today I was thinking we would start by talking about Let’s go. Let’s go in the serendipity direction. So um, for people who’ve been on the show. They know that I’m tenacious about I’m polite. But I’m also tenacious about like you have to actually say no otherwise I will just continuously two months later or three months later I’ve waited for people to like have children. And come back a year and a half later um so it’s and it’s part of I think I understand how how much of of a I don’t want to save a gift but like it’s nice when things finally click. Everybody’s just like this is awesome. So ah to me I’m always thinking. Well, it’s not good right now. So I’m not going to push I’m just going to make a little note. A little thing come back in a month and a half three months nine years whatever um so when we first almost scheduled a podcast you were talking about helping or consulting I don’t know um how you picture that in your own mind a friend with their podcast. So can you tell me a little bit about what was different or really exciting about getting to help someone else with their passionate podcasting project and like how that differs to working on your own um podcast.

02:03.22
Cassandra
Um, yeah I Well in she reached out to me because she had this inkling that I could support her She didn’t know why like she didn’t know why me.

02:11.84
Craig
A.

02:20.12
Cassandra
But she also knew it was me that I was I was the person who was kind of connecting the dots for her in that missing link for for supporting her in her professional orbit I guess and and so. She actually and she actually reached out to me because of a virtual birthday party that I hosted that I called a creativity potluck and I invited all sorts of people and um, invited them to share a piece of creativity and I gave them examples of what. They could Share. Um, but I did really want to leave it wide open because Creativity is wide open and and so she entered in and um I don’t want to speak for her in this way, but it did seem like her entering into that.

03:01.63
Craig
Um, that’s what that means right.

03:17.28
Cassandra
Creativity potluck birthday was permission to see her podcast that she had started at the time she was earlier on and I think in season one maybe season None but um, earlier on in that process and seeing that as creativity and that um the interviews. Interviews she was having and the story she was sharing that that that was one of her many art forms and not discounting that and not discrediting that um and not hiding it and being able to bring that out.

03:41.58
Craig
Are.

03:54.00
Cassandra
And so I think that was one of the glimmers one of several glimmers that she saw in wanting to reach out to me to help her and there were others too. But it’s like these little little messages from the universe of like ooh. Okay I’m going to reach out to to. She’s going to reach out to me and and so when she asked me, um, it was a full. Yes, even though neither of us knew exactly what we were saying yes to.

04:21.48
Craig
Did she finish her sentence before you said yes or after right, um, have you have you thought about I Always think that podcasting is a very lonely endeavor only because it’s relatively rare to find other people who are crazy about the same thing and. Now that you’ve seen how and don’t want to like put boards in your mouth. But now that you’ve seen how your efforts really like lit up her efforts. Are you now going? Oo I need to find myself somebody to do that for me or has it become a reciprocal relationship or. Do. You are you never until I Just said it. You never really thought that you needed help or with.

05:04.64
Cassandra
Well funny enough. It’s been I’ve been experimenting and playing with a lot of different reciprocal relationships I guess like in through um, different work I’ve started like a newsletter support group for.

05:22.59
Craig
I was going to say it’s a support group people who are trying to make not as general support group I got it immediately. That’s great.

05:23.48
Cassandra
People who are starting their email newsletters. Yes, yes, Yes, yup, yeah, the name is perfect right? Um, but I do have to say about the name we have Trans we’re on ah on a summer break. Um, but we transition the name to. Ah, the working title is rule Breakers support group because we noticed this trend of of needing to needing to actually break our own rules that we had made for ourselves um with newsletters being one of them. But overall um, starting and maintaining Businesses. So.

05:51.16
Craig
Um. Um, any process.

06:02.85
Cassandra
So I’m where did my thread come from here. Oh yes, so I’ve been experimenting and playing with reciprocal with different types of working creative working relationships I guess and and partnerships and. And so I feel like that was laying the groundwork for being able to work with my friend Diana where it was a lot more It is a lot more defined I guess um, where it’s like because I’ve been doing. I as well as she has been doing a lot of different experimenting with um, working with different types of people and like seeing how this works and do we want this to be informal. Do we want this to be more formalized. Do. We want this to be um, you know and and for myself is this a paid. Exchange is there is money not a part of this all of these questions are I feel like I have not just I feel like I have been exploring over the past several years and and so now arriving at working with her has been We’re both a lot more. We’re ready to say that yes you know before we even really fully know and understand what it is and and so that led to this past weekend where we had she flew out here. Um, and we.

07:20.41
Craig
Um.

07:35.84
Cassandra
We had a creative work retreat together and so we were able to. We’re now officially able to say like we have a hybrid environment. You know, working relationship of you know she and I met in person but it’s been the connection has been virtual for the past you know several years and now so.

07:51.26
Craig
Right.

07:55.30
Cassandra
Being able to be in person added another layer to this working partnership.

07:59.00
Craig
Are there any things that you um think maybe were blind spots of your own that when like they always say it’s None thing to be able to do something and then to be able to teach it like in a coaching others capacity that requires you to really understand. The the material and a lot of times my opinion is people who are really good at something. Naturally, they’re not the best teachers because they don’t understand how to take things apart to a level that can really help people who need to start from somewhere earlier on the path I’m just wondering if there are things that you learned about yourself or about your podcasting. Or maybe your process is around creativity that you realize as part of your working with her.

08:45.94
Cassandra
Definitely I think that part of the the process has been defining. What is the title I have in this role I guess and and so I think you had said earlier about like oh I don’t know if you had said consultant or different like what the what the name of it was.

09:00.32
Craig
Right.

09:03.40
Cassandra
And so we started with consultant and and then I was like is it consultant am I coaching what? what is the name of this that we’re doing well. So yeah, and co-creating is another another ah one of my one of my words. Um.

09:11.51
Craig
Co-creating What are we doing.

09:21.12
Cassandra
And so I actually arrived at um that I’m ah I’m her creative partner and that and and having partner kind of ah reframed it to that I’m not the expert coming in and saying this is.

09:36.20
Craig
So.

09:37.57
Cassandra
This is how you can do it based on my years of experience in podcasting because I do not have years of experience out outing myself right there? Um, but rather that I’m I’m partnering with you to.

09:41.80
Craig
Um, based on my 10 seconds of experience right.

09:53.47
Cassandra
To be your support your your persons who’s here for you to to not only bounce ideas off of but to make them tangible and and so what we’ve been seeing with the podcast is that it doesn’t have to just be the podcast and now we’re stepping into so. I’m supporting her in another of her projects that creativity is the is the connecting factor not audio or not um I mean it’s creativity and also storytelling I think are kind of those foundational ways of. Relating these projects to None another.

10:34.43
Craig
So many ideas in there are what if so they’re most of the people that I talk to who are podcasters most the people that I talk to have ah. The idea of like the None person so I am doing the thing I am making the thing I am a podcaster this part of who I am this is something I do and I think it’s more uncommon for someone to be actively helping other people on the other person’s project. So I’m just wondering if you have any. Things that you’ve taken away from it that like I don’t want to say it’s a shortcut so instead of having them need to go work with someone and learn the lesson. You can just tell them what the lesson is but other things that you feel are pretty clear takeaways from well everybody who podcasts would benefit from understanding. Maybe that you need somebody else at some point or understanding that no no see what I’m fishing for.

11:32.75
Cassandra
I somewhat do um I’m not 1 for like pithy like oh this is the thing to take away. So ah I’m going to give this back to you for a moment. Can you frame can you ask me it in a slightly different way.

11:47.15
Craig
I Could certainly Try. Um, what I’m curious about is your so your experience in the relationship working with the other person I’m going to call it. Unique. So Most people who are solo Podcasters. Um. Podcasturs Solo podcasters. Those people don’t have that experience. They don’t have access to the experience of working with somebody else on somebody else’s show most podcasters probably have some experience of like asking someone for help that person helps them work on something specific but I feel like your.

12:06.41
Cassandra
Um.

12:22.89
Craig
Experience I mean like you had an experience which is prolonged your experience would give you access to a different type of learning a different type of experiential knowledge than people who generally podcast by themselves. So That’s I’m looking at that going that’s Interesting. So What I’m what I’m looking for is like can you help me learn more about what that experience would be like if I chose to undergo that experience or what can we take away from that from your having done. It.

12:41.18
Cassandra
Um, you know.

12:52.71
Cassandra
Yeah, What’s what’s coming up for me. None is that I wonder how many or I’ll speak about myself first I learn in relationship I learn within relationships. And whether those relationships are with other humans. Whether those relationships are with the whether you say the more than human or non-human beings on our planet. Whether that’s um, trees or dogs or. Butterflies learning in relationship is and also learning I guess learning in relationship means that I’m learning and we are learning in experience and that experiential element is. Something that I wonder how how many solo podcasters are struggling with that element and and and having that and solo anything solo entrepreneurs.

14:01.23
Craig
Right? right.

14:06.32
Cassandra
Um, needing to do a lot of extra work to make that possible and and so because I I know that I do learn in relationship. Um I think for so much of my life. I I’ve That’s been like a little antennae that’s up and aware of ok like who can be and relate who who is like a good match for me in this whatever I’m learning and and so is it. Um. What’s the good match here and that could be It could be like I’m saying it could be a person. It could be somebody who’s in a totally another part of the world and thanks to technology. That’s you know that’s a whole lot easier and quicker Now. It could also be like the tree. That’s right outside my window here and so but remembering that learning doesn’t happen in isolation and and also that could be a like relationship with myself and with my own body too like it’s not like.

15:04.50
Craig
Um, right.

15:16.68
Cassandra
Being alone is necessarily isolation. But I think that forgetting that there’s this abundance of opportunities beyond me as well as within me and that. Thinking of oneself as solo fill in the blank solo podcaster solo you know any type of entrepreneur um or solo writer like writing you’re you know it’s it’s not like that isn’t really the truth and so but oftentimes. We and I’ll say me you know oftentimes I can think that about myself. Oh. It’s so low I’m on my own I’m in that isolating element and then where’s the learning happening then so I think that’s my that’s my None

15:58.00
Craig
Um, right.

16:05.10
Craig
Yeah I’m I’m gonna I’m going to vehemently agree with you because I think there’s we everybody in podcasting knows the rabbit holes and there’s technology and there’s just a none places where you can just like oh go become a master of this minutia. So we all. You know I I use the parito principle as a firehose to save my yeah say save every day with that. Well let’s just do 20% of the work and call it done. Um, but those things I’m describing that way of of like eliminating decision trees with just requis abandoned. He’s not the same as engaging with another person. And then having the experience of what is that other person’s point of view. What is that other person’s you know what’s the 20% that they want to keep out of this thing boy they seem really invested in the intro copy and I’m just like nobody listens that just skip over it. So I really think you’re you’re making a good point about relationships. Um. But we could just stay focused on podcasting. Although I also agree when you zoom out it works for all topics but focusing on podcasting I think it’s I’m I’m going to say I have known that and I have spent years working really hard to try and find other people like to work with me on projects. But if people haven’t noticed that it.

17:03.88
Cassandra
M.

17:18.19
Craig
Really is nice when you do finally realize oh you know like it was a time when I know to use a microphone and that was a real problem and then I figured it out. There was a time when I didn’t realize that I need other people to like work with at some level on this project. Um, and I know that in the beginning I got um, distracted lost or Miss. Under misled by the fact that I’m making a thing That’s one way like it’s just an audio file and it isn’t like an interactive thing. So I feel like I should be making it by myself since it really is just me when it goes out and the other person receives it and that’s kind of like a parallel that is a false parallel So I don’t know if you’ve.

17:56.10
Cassandra
A.

17:58.50
Craig
Further the thoughts about like how do we as Podcasters find those blind spots and figure out like oh I actually need technological assistance or I need emotional assistance. You know, like maybe the work that you’re doing in your podcast is really emotionally draining. You need somebody like you need a ah dog or maybe you need. A support group or maybe you need a bunch of other podcasters to commiserate with I don’t know they have even have thoughts on how you how you help another podcaster Gauge What they should go and look for first.

18:29.48
Cassandra
Yeah, 2 2 things are arising of getting uncomfortable like stepping out of 1 ne’s comfort zone to be able to see what you need to learn like that is is.

18:42.66
Craig
Um, and.

18:47.39
Cassandra
And I think tied in with that the other element that I’m thinking of is and I don’t know the exact words it’s like different words work for different people but listening like maybe it’s listening to your intuition listening to some. You know like we’re talking about Serendipity and synchronicity like listening to that or just listening for like clues of like Okay, what’s next for me and then it’s like okay well that seems pretty big and uncomfortable and it’s like no no I got to do that because what I have found is that when I do listen to that you know and and you could call it intuition or your.

19:25.72
Craig
Um, so yeah, the the quiet voice is another one I’ve heard. Yeah.

19:26.66
Cassandra
Gut or whatever like yeah yeah, a whisper. Yeah and listening to that has led me to situations and experiences and people that make. That have me feeling uncomfortable in a good way uncomfortable in a oh this is this is the next thing this is like kind of this is my personal learning curve. This is my growth edge like whatever hot words you want to.

19:52.15
Craig
Who.

20:00.75
Cassandra
You know, put in there like listening for that and then actually following up with it and following that um has led me to a lot of great great things that I didn’t know were the next step for me. Um, but I think that obviously something led this podcaster to podcasting something. It’s like hardly ever and maybe in 10 years from now or something. There will be plenty more people who are like there’s. Ah, job listing. Oh I can be a podcast host right? But like that’s not an everyday occurrence right? now it is it does stem from some part of you has this desire to be a podcaster and so you’re already tapping into that you’re already tapping into that inner.

20:40.20
Craig
Right? he.

20:55.82
Cassandra
Desire that inner calling that that curiosity that wonder and so keep following that like it’s not like that’s one and done that’s going to keep there’s going to still be. You know? Oh I Really want to reach out to this person for an interview.

21:01.27
Craig
Um.

21:10.68
Craig
Um, right.

21:13.29
Cassandra
Ok, like and it’s probably going to be uncomfortable like a little bit uncomfortable but that good kind of that that oh what’s next surprise. Delightful surprise kind of I Really do want to reach out to this person or I really do want to Try. Podcasting in this different kind of way. Um, yeah, yeah.

21:33.79
Craig
I think that’s a great point. Um I always hate to I’m I’m a big fan of repeating what I’ve heard but it also makes it sound like I’m summarizing and I don’t want to do that. But I think you make a great point about it I like to think of that as small courage and small bravery as opposed to like running toward the active you know disaster. Um, but it does take courage and bravery to lean into discomfort and I think that’s a great point. That’s an excellent thing that anybody including myself can lean into um Cassandra I’m just watching our time I want to make sure that we don’t go too long so I guess I would just say thanks so much for taking the time it was a pleasure to have a little. Bite size conversation with you. Thank you.

22:14.57
Cassandra
Thank you so much.

I freshened up the transcript (like adding laughs and adjusting punctuation). Some people who prefer or need to read transcripts are on my email list so thought I’d make sure this option was a totally accessible and smooth one!

Transcript

[00:00:00] Craig: Hello, I’m Craig Constantine. Welcome. This is the podcaster community show short conversations that are not just about podcasting, because I like to take the scenic route. My guest today is Cassandra Ellis. Welcome Cassandra, Cassandra, how are you? I, I have this fear as everybody knows of mispronouncing people’s names.

[00:00:18] That’s like my, you know, people worry about public speaking. I worry about adding extra R’s in people’s first names. I’m sorry. Welcome Cassandra.

[00:00:27] Cassandra: Well, thank you. And you did say Cassandra, it’s usually a question of like, is it Cassandra [Cah-sahn-drah] or Cassandra [Cah-sann-draa]? And I’m like, well, I do have a preference and you got it.

[00:00:35] Craig: Woo. I lucked out. I hadn’t even thought about that. Thank you for opening up additional chasms of horror for me to mispronounce people’s names.

[00:00:43] Cassandra: [laughs]

[00:00:44] Craig: Yeah. Oh, with great mental powers comes great mental illness. So today I was thinking we would start by talking about, let’s go, let’s go in the serendipity direction.

[00:00:55] So, um, I, for people who’ve been in the show, they know that I’m tenacious [00:01:00] about. I’m polite, but I’m also tenacious about like, you have to actually say no, otherwise I will just continuously two months later, three months later, I’ve waited for people to like have children and come back a year and a half later.

[00:01:12] Um, so it it’s, and it’s part of, I think. Um, I understand how, how much of a, I don’t wanna say of a gift, but like, it’s nice when things finally click everybody’s just like, this is awesome. So, uh, to me, I’m always thinking, well, it’s not good right now, so I’m not gonna push. I’m just gonna make a little note, a little thing, come back in a month and a half, three months, nine years, whatever.

[00:01:35] Um, so when we first almost scheduled a podcast, you were talking about helping or consulting. I don’t know, um, how you picture that in your own mind, a friend with their podcast. So can you tell me a little bit about what was different or really exciting about getting to help someone else with their passionate podcasting project and like has how that [00:02:00] differs to working on your own, um, podcast?

[00:02:04] Cassandra: Yeah, I, well, She reached out to me because she had this inkling that I could support her. She didn’t know why, like she didn’t know why me , but she also knew it was me that I was, I was the person who was kind of connecting the dots for her in that missing link for, for supporting her in her professional orbit, I guess.

[00:02:34] And, and so she actually, and she actually reached out to me because of a virtual birthday party that I hosted that I called a creativity potluck, and I invited all sorts of people and, um, invited them to share a piece of creativity. And I gave them examples of what they could share. Um, but I did [00:03:00] really wanna leave it wide open because creativity is wide open and,

[00:03:05] Craig: that’s what that means, yeah. [said softly]

[00:03:08] Cassandra: And.

[00:03:10] She entered in and, um, I don’t wanna speak for her in this way, but it did seem like her entering into that creativity, potluck birthday was permission to see her podcast that she had started at the time she was earlier on in, I think in season one, maybe season two, but, um, Earlier on in that process and seeing that as creativity and that, um, the interviews, interviews she was having and the story she was sharing, that, that, that was one of her many art forms and not discounting that and not discrediting that, um, and not hiding it and being able to bring that out.

[00:03:55] And so I think that was one of the glimmers, one of several glimmers that [00:04:00] she saw in wanting to reach out to me to help her. And there were others too, but it’s like these little, little messages from the universe of like, Ooh, okay, I’m gonna reach out to, to, she’s gonna reach out to me. And, and so when she asked me um, it was a full yes, even though neither of us knew exactly what we were yes

[00:04:26] Craig: Did she finish her sentence before you said yes. Or after I. Have you did have you thought about, um, I, I always think that podcasting is a very lonely endeavor only because it’s relatively rare to find other people who are crazy about the same thing. And now that you’ve seen how I don’t wanna like put words in your mouth, but now that you’ve seen how your efforts really like lit up her efforts, are you now going, Ooh, I need to find myself somebody to do that for me?

[00:04:59] Or has [00:05:00] it become a reciprocal relationship or do you, are you never un- until I just said it, you never really thought that you needed help or when.

[00:05:08] Cassandra: Well, funny enough, it’s been, I’ve been experimenting and playing with a lot of different reciprocal relationships, I guess like, and through, um, different work I’ve started like a newsletter support group for people are starting their email newsletters.

[00:05:28] Craig: gonna say it’s a support group of people who are trying to manage, not as general support group. I got it immediately. That’s great. [both laughing]

[00:05:34] Cassandra: Yep. The name is perfect. Right. Um, but I do have to say about the name. We have trans we’re on a, on a summer break. Um, but we transition the name to, uh, the working title as rule breakers support group, because we notice this trend of, of needing to needing to actually break our own rules that we had made for ourselves.

[00:05:55] Craig: hm.

[00:05:56] Cassandra: Um, Newsletters being one of them, but overall, [00:06:00] um, starting and

[00:06:01] Craig: any process.

[00:06:02] Cassandra: -maintaining businesses. So, so, uh I’m where did my thread come from here? Oh yes. [both laughing] So I’ve been experimenting and playing with reciprocal with different types of working- creative working relationships, I guess, and, and partnerships. And, and so I feel like that was laying the groundwork for being able to work with my friend, Diona, where it was a lot more-

[00:06:36] it is a lot more defined, I guess, um, where it’s like, because I’ve been doing I as well as she has been doing a lot of different experimenting with working with different types of people and like seeing how this works. And do we want this to be informal? Do we want this to be more formalized? Do we want this to be, um, you know, [00:07:00] and, and for myself, is this a paid exchange?

[00:07:03] Is there- is money, not a part of this? All of these questions are. I feel like I have, or not just, I feel like I have been exploring over the past several years. And, and so now arriving at working with her has been, we’re both a lot more, we’re ready to say that “Yes.” You know, before we even really fully know and understand what it is.

[00:07:29] And, and so that led to this past weekend where we had, she flew out here, um, and we, we had a creative work retreat together. And so we were able to, we’re now officially able to say, like, we have a hybrid environ, you know, working relationship of, you know, she and I met in person, but it’s been, the connection has been virtual for the past, you know, several years and now,

[00:07:57] Craig: hm.

[00:07:57] Cassandra: so being able to be in [00:08:00] person added another layer to this working partnership.

[00:08:05] Craig: Are there any things that you, um, think maybe were blind spots of your own that when, like they always say it’s one thing to be able to do something and then to be able to teach it like in a coaching others capacity that requires you to really understand. The the material. And a lot of times my opinion is people who are really good at something naturally they’re not the best teachers because they don’t understand how to take things apart to a level that can really help people who need to start from somewhere earlier on the path.

[00:08:36] Uh, I’m just wondering if there are things that you’ve learned about yourself or about your podcasting, or maybe your processes around creativity that you realize as part of your working with her?

[00:08:49] Cassandra: Definitely I think. Uh, part of the, the process has been defining what is the title I have in this role, I guess. And, and [00:09:00] so I think you had said earlier about like, oh, I don’t know if you had said consultant or different, like what the, what the name of it was.

[00:09:06] Craig: Right.

[00:09:07] Cassandra: And so we started with consultant and, and then I was like, is it consultant?

[00:09:12] Am I coaching? What, what is the name of this?

[00:09:16] Craig: Co-creating? What are we doing?

[00:09:18] Cassandra: Well, so, yeah, and co-creating is another, another, uh, one of my, one of my words. Um, and so I actually arrived at, um, that I’m a, I’m her creative partner and that, and, and having partner kind of re reframed it to that. I’m not the expert coming in and saying

[00:09:40] “This is, this is how you can do it based on my years of experience in podcasting,” cuz I do not have years of experience. [both laughing]

[00:09:48] Craig: Based on my 10 seconds of experience. [laughs]

[00:09:51] Cassandra: Outing myself right there. Um, but rather that I’m, I’m partnering with you to, to be your support, your, your, you. [00:10:00] Your person who’s here for you to, to not only bounce ideas off of, but to make them tangible.

[00:10:07] And, and so what we’ve been seeing with the podcast is that it doesn’t have to just be the podcast. And now we’re stepping into sup I’m supporting her in another of her projects. That creativity is the, is the connecting factor, not audio. Or not, um, I mean it’s creativity and also storytelling, I think are kind of the, those foundational ways of relating these projects to one another.

[00:10:39] Craig: Hm. So many ideas in there. Uh, what if, so there, most of the people that I talk to who are podcasters , uh, most people that I talk to have, uh, the idea of like the first person. So I am doing the thing. I am making the thing. I am a podcaster. [00:11:00] This part of who I am, this is something I do. And I think it’s more uncommon for someone to be actively helping other people on the other person’s project. So I’m just wondering if you have any things that you’ve taken away from it that like, I don’t wanna say it’s a shortcut. So instead of having them need to go work with someone and learn the lesson, you can just tell 'em what the lesson is, but are there things that you feel are pretty clear takeaways from- well, everybody who podcasts would benefit from understanding maybe that you need somebody else at some point or understanding that I dont know, see what I’m fishing for.

[00:11:38] Cassandra: I somewhat do. Um, I’m not one for like pithy, like,“oh, this is the thing to take away.” So, uh, I’m gonna give this back to you for a moment. Can you frame, can you ask me it in a slightly different way?

[00:11:53] Craig: I could certainly try. [Cass laughs] Um, what I’m curious about is your [00:12:00] ex, so your experience in the relationship, working with the other person. Uh, I’m gonna call it unique. So most people who are solo podcasters, um, pod -preneurs, solo podcasters, those people don’t have that experience. They don’t have access to the experience of working with somebody else on somebody else’s show.

[00:12:19] Uh, Most podcasters probably have some experience of like asking someone for help. That person helps them work on something specific. Um, but I feel like your experience. I mean like the, you had an experience which is prolonged, your experience would give you access to a different type of learning, a different type of experiential knowledge, than people who generally podcast by themselves. So that’s, I’m looking at that going. That’s interesting. So what I’m, what I’m looking for is like, can you help me learn more about what that experience would be like if I chose to undergo that experience or what can we take away from that, from your having done it.

[00:12:58] Cassandra: Yeah, what’s, what’s coming [00:13:00] up for me first is that I wonder how many. Or I’ll speak about myself. First. I learn relationship. I learn within relationships and whether those relationships are with other humans, whether those relationships are with the, whether you say the more-than-human or non-human beings on our planet, whether that’s, um, trees or dogs or butterflies.

[00:13:35] Learning in relationship is, and also learning, I guess, learning in relationship means that I’m learning and we are learning in experience. And that experiential element is something that I wonder how, how many solo podcasters are [00:14:00] struggling with that element. And. And, and having that and solo anything [Cass laughs]

[00:14:07] Craig: Right. right.

[00:14:08] Cassandra: solo entrepreneurs, um, needing to do a lot of extra work to make that possible.

[00:14:18] And, and so, because I, I know that I do learn in relationship, um. I think for so much of my life, I that’s been like a little antenna that’s up and aware of. “Okay. Like who can be, and really who, who is like a good match for me in this, whatever I’m learning?” And, and so is it, um, What’s the good match here? And that could be, it could be like I’m saying it could be a person, it could be somebody who’s in a totally another part of the world and thanks to technology that’s [00:15:00] eas- you know, that’s a whole lot easier and quicker now.

[00:15:02] It could also be like the tree that’s right outside my window here. And so, but remembering that learning doesn’t happen in isolation

[00:15:11] Craig: Right.

[00:15:12] Cassandra: and, and also. That could be a like relationship with myself and with my own body too. Like, it’s not like being alone is necessarily isolation, but I think that forgetting that there’s this abundance of opportunities beyond me, as well as within me and that thinking of oneself as solo fill in the blank, solo, podcaster, solo, you know, any type of entrepreneur, um, or solo writer like writing your, you know, it’s, it’s not like- that isn’t really the truth. And so, but oftentimes we, and I’ll say [00:16:00] me, you know, oftentimes I can think that about myself. Oh, it’s solo.

[00:16:04] I’m on my own.

[00:16:05] Craig: Right.

[00:16:06] Cassandra: I’m that isolating element, and then where’s the learning happening then? So I think that’s my one.

[00:16:13] Craig: Yeah, I’m I’m gonna, I’m gonna vehemently agree with you because I think there’s, we, everybody in podcasting knows the rabbit holes and the there’s technology, and there’s just a million places where you can just like, oh, go become a master of this minutia. Um, so we all, you know, I, I use the burrito principle as a fire hose to save my, you know, say, save every day with that.

[00:16:33] Well, let’s just do 20% of the work and call it done. Um, but that, those things I’m describing that way of, of like, limiting decision trees with just reckless abandon. It’s not the same as engaging with another person. And then having the experience of what is that other person’s point of view? What is that other person’s, you know, what’s the 20% that they want to keep out of this thing? Boy, they seem really invested in the intro copy, and I’m just like, nobody listens that, [00:17:00] just skip over it.

[00:17:01] So I, I really think you’re, you’re making a good point about relationships. Um, we, we can just stay focused on podcasting, although all they also agree when you zoom out, it works for all topics, but focusing on podcasting. I think it’s I I’m, I’m gonna say I have known that. And I have spent years working really hard to try and find other people like to work with me on projects.

[00:17:21] But if people haven’t noticed that it really is nice when you do finally realize, oh, you know, like there was a time when I did know how to use a microphone and that was a real problem. And then I figured it out. There was a time when I didn’t realize that I need other people to like work with at some level on this project.

[00:17:40] And I know that in the beginning I got, um, distracted, lost or misled by the fact that I’m making a thing. That’s one way, like it’s just an audio file and it isn’t like an interactive thing. So I feel like I should be making it by myself since really is just me when it goes out and the other person receives it.

[00:17:58] And that’s kind of like a [00:18:00] parallel that is a false parallel. So I don’t know if you’ve have you have further thoughts about like, how do we as podcasters find those blind spots and figure out like, oh, I actually need technological assistance or I need emotional assistance. You know, like maybe the work that you’re doing in your podcast is really emotionally draining.

[00:18:20] You need somebody like you need a, a dog, or maybe you need a support group, or maybe you need a bunch of other podcasters to commiserate with. I don’t know. Do you have any other thoughts on how you, how you help another podcaster gauge what they should go and look for first?

[00:18:36] Cassandra: Yeah, two, two things are arising of- getting uncomfortable, like stepping out of one’s comfort zone to be able to see what you need to learn? Like that is, is, and I think tied in with that, the other element that I’m thinking of is-[00:19:00]

[00:19:00] I don’t know the exact words. It’s like different words work for different people, but listening, like maybe it’s listening to your intuition, listening to some, you know, like we were talking about serendipity and synchronicity, like listening to that, or just listening for like clues of like, okay, what’s next for me?

[00:19:19] And then it’s like, okay, well that seems pretty big and uncomfortable. And it’s like, no, no, I gotta do that. Because what I have found is that when I do listen to that- you know, and, and you could call it intuition or your gut or whatever, like

[00:19:34] Craig: the, the quiet voice is another word-

[00:19:36] Cassandra: yeah, yeah. Whisper. Yeah. And listening to that has led me to situations and experiences and people that make- that have me feeling uncomfortable in a good way. Uncomfortable in a, oh, this is, this is the next thing. This is like, kind of, this is my personal learning [00:20:00] curve. This is my growth edge. Like whatever hot words you wanna, you know, put in there, like listening for that. And then actually following up with it and following that, um, has led me to a lot of great, great things that I didn’t know were the next step for me. Um, but I think that obviously something led this podcaster to podcasting. Something- it’s like hardly ever [laughs] and maybe in 10 years from now or something, there will be plenty more people who are like, there’s a job listing. Oh, I can be a podcast [Craig laughs]. But like, that’s not an everyday occurrence. Right now, it is, it does stem from some part of you has this desire to be a podcaster. And so you’re already tapping into that. You’re already tapping into [00:21:00] that inner desire, that inner calling, that, that curiosity, that wonder. And so keep following that, like, it’s not like that’s one and done.

[00:21:11] That’s gonna keep, there’s gonna still be, you know, “oh, I really wanna reach out to this person for an interview.” Okay. Like, and it’s probably gonna be uncom like a little bit uncomfortable, but that good kind of that, that, "oh, what’s next? Surprise. Delightful surprise. Kind of. I really do wanna reach out to this person or I really do wanna try podcasting in this different kind of way.

[00:21:38] Um, yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:42] Craig: I think that’s a great point. Um, I, I always hate to, I, I’m a big fan of repeating what I’ve heard, but it also makes it sound like I’m summarizing. And I don’t wanna do that, but I, I think you make a great point about, I, I like to think of that as small courage and small bravery, as opposed to like running toward the active, you know, disaster.[00:22:00]

[00:22:00] Um, but it does take courage and bravery to lean into discomfort. And, uh, I think that’s a great point. That’s an excellent thing that anybody including myself, can lean into. Um, Cassandra, I’m just watching our time. I wanna make sure that, you know, we don’t go too long. So I guess I would just say thanks so much for taking the time.

[00:22:17] It was a pleasure to have a little bite-sized conversation with you. Thank you.

[00:22:22] Cassandra: Thank you so much.

@cassandra, that is such a kind and generous contribution! Thank you for posting your efforts! :heart_eyes: